What irritates me about sub MOA

[Jeff32]

I read posts all over the net about guns or in fact people making a big deal of shooting MOA at a 100 yards. In this day and age and in fact for about 60 yrs all guns should shoot just a little over an inch at a 100 yards with Stevie wonder behind it. MOA in my mind is not that great. That's a minute amount of just barely over an inch, I don't have a gun nor have I ever since I became educated that shots over 3/4" at a hundred with several shooting 1/2 or less.

When I was younger I had a 7mm mag that shot 2-3" at a 100, this was my fault and big learning experience for me. I bought a nice model 70 brand new and then turned around and put a tasco world class cope on it (junk). There is no way most of your cheaper optics will successfully perform on a regular basis on that large of a caliber. I have put cheap scopes on smaller calipers such as 222 or 223, my cut off is a 243. I have seen time and time again people put these crap optics and larger calibers and then **** and moan the gun is crap. With a few hundred bucks and a slight education I have them shooting sub MOA, I can help with those things but the idiots shooting like they have to shoot a box of bullets in 5 minutes well I just can't fix stupid lol.

Another big issue I have is the guy that will only shoot one brand of bullet because that's what his dad shot, when shooting a new gun you have to experiment with ammunition. I have a 300 win mag that shoots most brands but likes factory winchesters, my buddy has a 300 win mag that will not shoot these bullets worth a crap. ( I mostly do some quick reloads but not for 300 mag, long story)

The point is that any name brand gun will shot well under MOA, if ur not achieving this than you or what you have done is the problem ( outside of that rare lemon gun, which can happen)
Either you did not mount the scope right, you have crappy mounts, cheap optics, haven't found the right bullets for the best barrel harmonics or you just need to learn how to shoot.

My favorite gun is a cheap model 700 adl synthetic stock with a bull barrel, it's a dicks special I bought with the cheap scope for 450 with a 50 rebate 400 bucks final price. Brand new out of the box with hornady TAP it shot 3/4 group and with some cheap reloads I've done I acieve 1/2-3/4 group left or right handed. I know if I took the time I to do a good reload I could achieve 1/2 or less.

Final on this if your not getting 3/4" groups or so out of almost any gunthen there is a reason why almost guaranteed not the gun. The idea a gun will shot MOA is an insult on your intelligence and not a manufacturing marvel.

 

[gohring3006]

Shoot enough of them and you will find such guns.
Barrels not stressed relieved, botched chamber jobs, gouged throats and leads, untrue barrel to action fit and poor stock to action fit will all lead to poor shooting rifles. And forgot about poor rifling jobs and extreme barrel runout..

 

[J E Custom]

Shoot enough of them and you will find such guns.
Barrels not stressed relieved, botched chamber jobs, gouged throats and leads, untrue barrel to action fit and poor stock to action fit will all lead to poor shooting rifles. And forgot about poor rifling jobs and extreme barrel runout..

+1

The worst I have ever seen was a factory 25 WSM that shot between 5 and 6'' groups @ 100 yards.

After doing everything known to man to it, it dropped to just over 1 " groups this rifle should have never left the manufacture.

I find that factory barrels are the worst culprits and when you add cheep stocks and poor assembly chances are that you will not be happy.

Most on this site expect better than 1 MOA (Normally less than 1/2 MOA) because of the distance and strive to get there rifle in the 1/10th MOA if possible. This requires shooter skills also.

J E CUSTOM

 

[BryanLitz]

My deal is, sub MOA isn't the big factor in hitting targets at long range.

I'll illustrate with an example.

Imagine you have a group of LR Hunters assembled and you ask them:

"Who would bet $50 they can shoot under 1 MOA groups at 100 yards?"

Every hand should go up.

Now ask:

"Who would bet $50 they can shoot under 1 MOA groups at 1000 yards?"

Nearly every hand would go up, possibly with some comments about wind condition.

Finally, you ask:

"Who would bet $50 they can hit a 10" target at 1000 yards on your first shot?"

If you're asking a group of experienced and realistic LR Hunters, you'll see far fewer hands on this question.

This line of questioning illustrates the difference between 'precision', which is shooting groups, and 'accuracy', which is centering groups.

Getting 1 MOA precision, even at 1000 yards is not so difficult as you've said.

But, hitting 1 MOA targets requires accuracy in addition to precision. And since hitting targets is what LRH is all about, we can't marginalize the importance of accuracy.

Achieving precision is all about handloading, quality equipment, and shooting skills. However, accuracy is a much different skillset, which relies on your ability to determine range, wind, and use a ballistics program effectively to determine correct elevation and wind.

So when I see a discussion about a rifle that's a 1/4 MOA vs. 1/2 MOA, what I'm thinking is: so can one hit a 2.5" target at 1000, and the other can hit a 5" target? NO! The size target they're able to hit at LR has much more to do with the shooters mastery of the factors affecting accuracy, rather than precision.

-Bryan

 

[Erik Kiser]

I have a feeling the OP's shooting experience is rather limited. There were a few clues in his post

 

[Engineering101]

Some really good points made in this thread but.... I've got a bunch of rifles. I tend to favor those that shoot sub MOA because I know then that I am the weak link. Bryan is right. In long range HUNTING it is about the 1st shot and it is hard enough to hit on the first try so I sure don't want to wonder at all about what the rifle/scope is doing. Bottom line, I'll take the 1/10th MOA rifle if I could get one every time. So, the search for accuracy and precision continues....

 

[Garycrow]

There's also a big difference on these internet discussion boards in how posters define the accuracy (or precision ) of their rifles. For a lot of guys their rifle is a 1/2 MOA rifle because it once shot a 1/2" three shot group at 100 yds. Never mind that the chance of repeating that feat is near zero. There was a guy on here posting a few weeks ago that kept insisting that all you needed to have a 1/4 MOA rifle was buy a remington 700. A few posters pointed out that 1/4 MOA would win most short range benchrest shoots against purpose built rifles shooting 6 PPC's but he was insistent that the average out of the box remington M700 is a 1/4 MOA rifle.

It's been my experience that it's a pretty rare sporter weight rifle that will shoot consistent 100 yd. 5 shot sub-MOA groups out of the box, yet some people claim every rifle they see will do it. That tells me that we're not using the same metric.

 

[Greyfox]

I agree, boasting x MOA, while one of the requirements for LR shooting, doesn't mean a whole lot. Bryan's commentary is the reason that LR hunting has, of all the shooting sports, captivated and held my interest more than any other. To make that single shot on your quarry at over a half a mile, understanding the interdependence between skill, equipment, environmental factors, and animal behavior makes for a perpetual learning experience and a challenge that can last a lifetime.

 

[Jeff32]

Shoot enough of them and you will find such guns.
Barrels not stressed relieved, botched chamber jobs, gouged throats and leads, untrue barrel to action fit and poor stock to action fit will all lead to poor shooting rifles. And forgot about poor rifling jobs and extreme barrel runout..

If u do recall I did say the rare lemon that anyone can get from any manufacturer. Just call it beer thirty on a Friday may cause this to occur. Read my post closely the facts are pretty much any gain will shoot a 1" group with the above considerations taken into an account.

What caused my to post my post was due to all the self proclaimed experts that when someone posts asking for a review of some gun they either bash the gun in question, they answer with something like a friend of friend has one and it's great or sux (3rd or 4th hand info) or the last answer from the quote expert is its a good gun it will shoot an MOA. Good god I would hope it would shoot at a minimum standard that most gun manufacturers use.

Now the answers I like to read is I have one with redfield mounta, Nikon scope and shoot say Winchester ammo and it regularary shoots a 3/4 group. If you respond it should shoot a 1" group well duh that is the min most all guns should shoot.

Fair to good optics, good mounts, a slight skill in shooting and taking the time to find the ammo the gun likes and most guns will shoot a 3/4 MOA. ( exception for the experts to not include a lemon or a worn barrel or action damage) if you are not achieving this you are saling yourself short and should take a little time to get the the cause whether it's the ammo, the scope, the mounts or just your needing a little coaching on your skills and tactics you use in shooting. This is not a jab at your skill because no matter how good of a shot you are we all need to improve our skill an knowledge level of shooting.

One last note we all need to work with those that struggle with the inability of shooting to a guns potential, answer their questions with curtesy and remember before you were annie Oakley someone helped you with knowledge and coaching your skills. Some people just have a natural ability to shoot and others need lots of practice and coaching.

 

[justgoto]

MOA in my mind is not that great.

But it is more than good enough for the average shooter, that may shoot a deer at 50 to 150 yards occasionally... and that doesn't bother me one bit!

 

[gohring3006]

If u do recall I did say the rare lemon that anyone can get from any manufacturer. Just call it beer thirty on a Friday may cause this to occur. Read my post closely the facts are pretty much any gain will shoot a 1" group with the above considerations taken into an account.

What caused my to post my post was due to all the self proclaimed experts that when someone posts asking for a review of some gun they either bash the gun in question, they answer with something like a friend of friend has one and it's great or sux (3rd or 4th hand info) or the last answer from the quote expert is its a good gun it will shoot an MOA. Good god I would hope it would shoot at a minimum standard that most gun manufacturers use.

Now the answers I like to read is I have one with redfield mounta, Nikon scope and shoot say Winchester ammo and it regularary shoots a 3/4 group. If you respond it should shoot a 1" group well duh that is the min most all guns should shoot.

Fair to good optics, good mounts, a slight skill in shooting and taking the time to find the ammo the gun likes and most guns will shoot a 3/4 MOA. ( exception for the experts to not include a lemon or a worn barrel or action damage) if you are not achieving this you are saling yourself short and should take a little time to get the the cause whether it's the ammo, the scope, the mounts or just your needing a little coaching on your skills and tactics you use in shooting. This is not a jab at your skill because no matter how good of a shot you are we all need to improve our skill an knowledge level of shooting.

One last note we all need to work with those that struggle with the inability of shooting to a guns potential, answer their questions with curtesy and remember before you were annie Oakley someone helped you with knowledge and coaching your skills. Some people just have a natural ability to shoot and others need lots of practice and coaching.

There are just a few manufacturers that have a 1 moa guarantee. And if every gun shot moa or better, all gunsmiths would be doing bluing jobs and fixing the occasional stripped screw.
If you expect every factory rifle to shoot 3/4 moa with factory ammo and maintain that at long range, then you will be very disappointed With just about every factory gun made. There are exceptions I happen to have one but I searched along time and shot a lot of rifles to find it. And I didn't find it with factory ammo.

 

[Jeff32]

If you start looking around you will find numerous guarantee MOA, tikka, TC, weatherby, and numerous others. Many gunsmiths are around because of lazy shooters that don't take the time to understand simple things in accuracy. These same folks that have to go to the gunsmith because their gun isn't shooting MOA are the same guys that get a bad us gunsmith built gun and can't shoot a 1/2 group with it. This is not a post to down play the profession of gunsmithing because many of us want that gun that will readily outshoot our ability in the hopes we can take a small bore gun and put 3 shots under a pencil eraser( which I have done with a 22 in a shooting competition)

Please remember the intent of the post was the fact that telling someone a gun can shoot an MOA is like saying your hd tv should have a decent picture or if you buy a 6-20 leupold scope you should be able to see better at long distances

 

[MudRunner2005]

If you start looking around you will find numerous guarantee MOA, tikka, TC, weatherby, and numerous others. Many gunsmiths are around because of lazy shooters that don't take the time to understand simple things in accuracy. These same folks that have to go to the gunsmith because their gun isn't shooting MOA are the same guys that get a bad us gunsmith built gun and can't shoot a 1/2 group with it. This is not a post to down play the profession of gunsmithing because many of us want that gun that will readily outshoot our ability in the hopes we can take a small bore gun and put 3 shots under a pencil eraser( which I have done with a 22 in a shooting competition)

Please remember the intent of the post was the fact that telling someone a gun can shoot an MOA is like saying your hd tv should have a decent picture or if you buy a 6-20 leupold scope you should be able to see better at long distances

Actually, Weatherby only has a 1.5" guarantee at 100 yards, unless it's a Sub-MOA model rifle. I recently traded off an Accumark ($2,100 MSRP) that I've had since new (2008), that wouldn't even achieve this guarantee with factory loads, only with handloads could I get Weatherby acceptable groups. They still weren't acceptable to me, which is why it got traded...

I do find it both sad and funny that their Vanguard line has a model that offers Sub-MOA guarantee for around $650-800. And their Mark V line, starting at $1,800 and go up from there, only have a 1.5" guarantee.

That's very sad that I can buy a gun for 1/3 of the price that will shoot 1/3 the size group.

I also think it's sad that with technology as advanced as it is today, that these companies can't guarantee sub-MOA groups out of their rifles. If they upgraded their tooling from 1930's to 2015 models, they probably could give you a FAR superior product for the same high price they offer them for us now.

Personally, as a HUGE Remington 700 fan, I still think $699 for an SPS made on the antiquated machines they still use, is rediculous. If they built them on new CNC controlled machines with good tooling, and used CNC gun drills, and CNC rifling machines, then I wouldn't hesitate to drop $699 on one, and have full faith in it being a sub-MOA rifle out of the box.

Instead, I buy cheap $300-350 pawn shop special used 700's and immediately snatch them apart and rebarrel and build semi-customs out of them, because for about $300 more than what I can buy an SPS for, I can build a gun I KNOW will shoot to 1000, or beyond (depending on caliber).

 

[gohring3006]

So your saying if I take a rifle shooting 2in groups at 100 and have it trued, bedded and free floated and it comes back shooting .5 moa. Its because I was too lazy. And this is after I did an extensive load work up with fire formed brass trimmed, uniformed primer pockets, meticulous power choices and charging, seating depth work, ladder tested and chrony measured. And all of my other rifles shoot .3 to .5's after doing my load workup