What do you see with virgin vs. once fired.

[MagnumManiac]

It was my understanding that seating depth was one thing that can be done in conjunction with fire forming your cases?

Yes, this is exactly how I roll.
Pick a middle load of a slightly faster powder and test seating depth first. The principle is that the powder load isn't tuned, you are ONLY looking at seating depth changes. Many say this is wrong, but it always works for me very, very well. I then run ladder tests at 600.

Cheers.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Yet ive seen plenty of match shooters fl size their brass. Each shooter seems to have their own regimen that they feel gives them optimal results --- the saying goes "you do you"

Shooting F-class for many years I have not seen anyone actually FL Size their brass, everyone Partially sizes, me included. I went through using bushing dies…not anymore, body dies, honed neck FL Dies and most recently setting neck clearance with mandrel dies.
Each method does actually give you differing results.
Case fit to chamber, and WHERE that fit is, is determined by how you fire form your brass, and then by how you size, or do not size it.
I fire my cases 3 times with neck sizing only, measure case capacity using actual CC volume, size them minimally by .0005"-.001" and measure again. I also measure at all datum points, including head to front of belt etc, etc.
Sure it's anal, but only needs doing once.

Cheers.

 

[Koda_]

Should I expect these to change with the 1x fired brass once I have those reloaded in the brass that's been shot.

How should I expect them to change?

It depends on your handloading process, if you neck size or FL size or bump the shoulder. Virgin brass is sized much smaller than fireformed (the chamber) so energy is lost expanding the brass. If your handloading process is very consistent, but you just shoulder bump the fireformed brass you might see your ES improve or get slightly lower velocities, or maybe no change.
Ive used virgin brass when I had to start with it, data is never wasted. Use the velocity data you got plus any signs of pressure and continue to fine tune. Maybe you might have to do another OCW test, or if you like an accuracy node in the groups you got you might just roll with that and fine tune that charge weight.

 

[QuietTexan]

Yet ive seen plenty of match shooters fl size their brass. Each shooter seems to have their own regimen that they feel gives them optimal results --- the saying goes "you do you"

They FL size their brass AFTER it grows to the point it needs to be sized. Cases that rechamber without resistance shouldn't have the shoulders bumped at all, if you are then in most cases you're oversizing a case down; a correctly set up FL die will not necessarily touch the shoulders for multiple sizing cycles.

If I resize with an FL die and the shoulders don't move, did I FL size at all?

 

[Mike D Texas]

I don't think you'll see much if any velocity gains from case growth. Supposedly the PRC chamber is "optimized" to eliminate or at least minimize case growth.

I do agree your efforts will be better spent doing load development with fired cases.

 

[cohunt]

They FL size their brass AFTER it grows to the point it needs to be sized. Cases that rechamber without resistance shouldn't have the shoulders bumped at all, if you are then in most cases you're oversizing a case down; a correctly set up FL die will not necessarily touch the shoulders for multiple sizing cycles.

If I resize with an FL die and the shoulders don't move, did I FL size at all?

Its a fl die, is it not? I never stated the fl dies are run down all the way to the shell holder, some don't bump- some bump a little- some bump a lot- some have custom honed fl dies --- some use bushing dies....but a neck size only die is not a fl die ------, I'm not saying that no match shooters use neck only dies, I'm just saying that each guy has his own preference and some match shooters use fl dies and do just fine

As I said " you do you" , do what works best for you

I wish I could go back to "ignorance is bliss" but I'm stuck in my ways now after learing over 40 years of reloading---- when I first started, I mixed brass brands, FL sized to the shell holder, randomly chose primers and powders, and never changed seating depths--- just with bullet choice and powder charge variations I came up with 1/2 minute loads--- but it was pure guess/trial and error/a blind rat finds the cheese game back then--- now I think I've learned things along the way that speed the process of finding an accurate load--- but there is always room for more knowledge.
But to say that you can't find a long range accurate load by fl sizing doesn't jive in my book--- so " you do you"

Consistency breeds accuracy

 

[Beluebow]

Shooting F-class for many years I have not seen anyone actually FL Size their brass,

Amazing how everyone's experience is different......I don't know anyone that doesn't FL resize.

This I can tell you about new brass.....at the Long Range Nationals last year the 3 out the top four spots were won using new brass.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Amazing how everyone's experience is different......I don't know anyone that doesn't FL resize.

This I can tell you about new brass.....at the Long Range Nationals last year the 3 out the top four spots were won using new brass.

There are many shooters using new brass in matches, I have, but it didn't pan out the way I would have liked. My 6.5x47 just doesn't settle nicely with brass not sized in my way, not even in the top 10.
Wimbledon matches have been won many times using new brass.

Cheers.

 

[RegionRat]

If you shot much highpower before factory brass for popular wildcats of 6BR or 284WIN were available, then at some point you probably got beat by someone who was fire-forming their brass during during a match.

But many beginning reloaders are young and discount the older adages as obsolete or outdated. Then we must point out more recent examples using up to date hardware and materials.

When folks like Austin Buschman go on record for having won recent major PRS matches while using virgin brass, then there should be a little less consternation over the question of the performance when using virgin brass with a very recent context.

The context of the shooting certainly matters, but that doesn't mean that virgin brass will always loose or perform badly so I will typically suggest a reloader learn the differences rather than assume it won't perform well.

Without a doubt, a seasoned ranking BR shooter can demonstrate the performance differences between virgin and fully fire-formed brass. Even many highpower shooters can easily show a side-by-side demo of the differences that are statistically significant.

There are examples of guns and brass where the virgin cycle is unacceptable, but that is found by testing rather than assumptions. As often as not, virgin brass can perform well enough that many shooters cannot shoot the difference or the difference is small and manageable.

For many of us, there has never been a question that we will need to use virgin brass for things that count like hunting or competition. You learn to manage the difference.

Should virgin brass and fire-formed reloaded brass be expected to shoot identical DOPE, no probably not. Some energy is used on that brass fit and it depends on the brass and chamber how big that difference will be. You may or may not shoot the identical load, but having another load adjustment for virgin brass is a small price to pay to use that virgin cycle.

Good quality virgin brass, in a good chamber/barrel can perform very well, but it may require a little difference in material management when the user has to use that virgin cycle and then the reloaded brass too. YMMV

 

[Rosebud]

I have a 7-08, 6.5 CM and 6.5 Grendel I hunt with. In all three is use Virgin brass to hunt with for several years. Its all made to the best I can make it in each rifle. I consider it factory new ammo made for my rifles. I've controlled the powder, the CBTO to get the best accuracy I can. Once I've used up 80% of the brass I start working on getting the once fired to shoot to the same POI and speed as the new brass so when the remaining new brass is shot up I don't have to scramble working out the fired brass. Its ready to go. If I was competing I would probably try a different loading method. This has worked well for me for four plus decades. I also recommend it to the people I load for. Edit. I use Lapua brass exclusively in all my hunting ammo. My .223 fun gun, A Rem 700 TatIcal 5R shoots mostly Hornady brass I FL size every time. Its trigger time in the summer.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Simple answer is yes, it will change. How much depends on many things. May be alot, may be a little.

With the shortages in components and the amounts used in the PRC and even in my own cartridges, I do load development with virgin cases. Once I have what is good for me, I will load all remaing virgin cases and shoot those until fireformed. Most of my guns are for hunting so sometimes is may take a bit to get through them all. Once all are firmformed, I drop the charge just a touch and revisit, basically just to re-confirm. You probably will see a slight increase in velocity as the case have "grown". In some cases (300 WM or other belted cases) I have seen quite a bit and had to drop down a few grains to find the happy place. Virgin cases ccan hide pressure as they are not yet at chamber capacity.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

One thing to consider is the actual fit of new brass to any given chamber. I've noticed that some new brass fit my chamber within .001" while other gun/brass combos showed .007-.009" of excess headspace. Case/chamber diameter differences could come into play as well.

It's possible that shooters winning competitions with factory new brass are using very consistent brass and a chamber that closely matches the brass right out of the box. It certainly doesn't happen by accident.

 

[blacktail 8541]

I work up to max charge weight in new brass, then back off 1 grain and look for best seating depth. With once fired brass I then set my FL die up to size to that datum on the shoulder. I don't want to set the shoulder back. Next I try different primers to find which gives me the best results with that powder, and finally I then go back and fine tune the powder charge.

Once fired or more brass usually requires no changes to the load. I keep notes on what primers work best with what powders the best , so I start there.

One thing I will add is that I provide new brass in the brand that I prefer when the rifle is being chambered.

 

[Mikecr]

It's possible that shooters winning competitions with factory new brass are using very consistent brass and a chamber that closely matches the brass right out of the box. It certainly doesn't happen by accident.

It's possible that it's not happening. That few if anyone are 'winning' with new brass.
All I see is occasional bragging about how well new brass can shoot.
Doesn't matter, unless they intend to always use new brass. Right? Unless they can repeat this over & over as a winning strategy.
Doesn't matter for them, or for you.

Yet ive seen plenty of match shooters fl size their brass. Each shooter seems to have their own regimen that they feel gives them optimal results --- the saying goes "you do you"

This does not affect the fact (in my declaration) that "If you FL size a lot, your cases may never reach stability".
If you have to retrim, frequently anneal, routinely replace cases, your brass is not stable.

Me doing Me, is not caring at all what match shooters do, as most of the participants are rarely prepared to compete, much less actually be competitive.