i don't know if this is going to work, im trying to download a picture of a typical target from my 264 win with 140gr sst bullets . doesn't seem to matter what load though. the first shot is at 4 o'clock two inches low second is at 11 two inches high third shot is usually very close to the second and the fourth is very close to the first. four inch or worse group but two very distinct groups. any one see this before? sorry, the target orientation is off, it needs to be rotated clocwise until the the holes are at 11 and 4
weird groups any thoughts?
- Thread starter YOTA
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
i don't know if this is going to work, im trying to download a picture of a typical target from my 264 win with 140gr sst bullets . doesn't seem to matter what load though. the first shot is at 4 o'clock two inches low second is at 11 two inches high third shot is usually very close to the second and the fourth is very close to the first. four inch or worse group but two very distinct groups. any one see this before? sorry, the target orientation is off, it needs to be rotated clocwise until the the holes are at 11 and 4
its a factory pre 64 model 70 Winchester westerner with a 26 inch barrel 1x9 twist. i don't know if its been glass bedded or not. my dad just had the stock re checkered. the scope is a zeiss rapid z800 with two piece bases not sure what rings it has. maybe ill take the stock off and see if its been bedded. its pretty frustrating to shoot.
ShtrRdy
Well-Known Member
That would be frustrating! Clearly there are two distinct "happy spots" that the shots are falling into.
Along with checking the stock to action interface, you should probably remove the scope, rings, and base and put it all back together to make sure everything is solid. You could try one thing at a time or do it all.
Along with checking the stock to action interface, you should probably remove the scope, rings, and base and put it all back together to make sure everything is solid. You could try one thing at a time or do it all.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Start from scratch, a good down to metal cleaning.
Take down and reassembly.
If I had another scope of good quality I'd use it to rule out a scope issue.
What's it's history? How many rounds down it? Know anybody with a good borescope?
Have you tried a longer string to see if it settles in one place or another?
Blasphemy to some, but I'd add for end pressure. Simple way is to just fold a target adding more until it settles down, or you can't pull stock, and barrel enough to fit more paper.
Good rifles in their day, any sentimental, or collector value, or can you modify it any way you wish?
Take down and reassembly.
If I had another scope of good quality I'd use it to rule out a scope issue.
What's it's history? How many rounds down it? Know anybody with a good borescope?
Have you tried a longer string to see if it settles in one place or another?
Blasphemy to some, but I'd add for end pressure. Simple way is to just fold a target adding more until it settles down, or you can't pull stock, and barrel enough to fit more paper.
Good rifles in their day, any sentimental, or collector value, or can you modify it any way you wish?
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
I take it you are handloading. I'd ascertain the LTL measurement and back off starting at 0.005 and work from there and you need to insure the pills are concentric in the neck. Even factory ammo is suspect in that area. Myself, I check every round with a Hornady runout gage or a Sinclair concentricity jig, but then, thats just me.
0.005 OTL will most likely cause you some bolt wipe and may or may not fit the magazine/floorplate feed, depending on rifle but it's a good starting point and yields enough jump so as not to cause an overpressure condition.
I never look at the first 'cold bore' shot as telling, why I shoot groups of 4. That first one is most always off in some respect, why, when I go hunting, I always pop one off (even at home prior to) and never touch the bore until afterwards.
I'd clean it well beforehand with BTE (or your preferred copper/carbon solvent) followed by good old reliable Hoppes using nylon bore brushes (I gave away all my bronze things long ago) and a nylon jag or patch puller from the receiver toward the muzzle. Never pull a brush backwards. especially a bronze one, Nylon brushes are more forgiving and can be pulled backwards but the patches need to be pushed with a nylon jag or patch puller (not pulling, though, pushing and do it with a CF cleaning rod, not a metal one.
Having said all that, your mileage may still vary but you eliminate many varibles.
0.005 OTL will most likely cause you some bolt wipe and may or may not fit the magazine/floorplate feed, depending on rifle but it's a good starting point and yields enough jump so as not to cause an overpressure condition.
I never look at the first 'cold bore' shot as telling, why I shoot groups of 4. That first one is most always off in some respect, why, when I go hunting, I always pop one off (even at home prior to) and never touch the bore until afterwards.
I'd clean it well beforehand with BTE (or your preferred copper/carbon solvent) followed by good old reliable Hoppes using nylon bore brushes (I gave away all my bronze things long ago) and a nylon jag or patch puller from the receiver toward the muzzle. Never pull a brush backwards. especially a bronze one, Nylon brushes are more forgiving and can be pulled backwards but the patches need to be pushed with a nylon jag or patch puller (not pulling, though, pushing and do it with a CF cleaning rod, not a metal one.
Having said all that, your mileage may still vary but you eliminate many varibles.
im not sure how much its been shot but im suspicious that its been shot alot it seems like there is something loose but i checked the bases and rings when i installed the scope so
im going to clean it really good and see if that doesn't fix it then check to see if its been bedded next ill take it to a gunsmith and have him look at the bore, if that checks out then ill take the scope rings and bases off and reinstall them.. ill try the fore end pressure too. oh,yea, i am hand loading so ill play around with the seating depth. i don't have much time before hunting season starts. thanks for the ideas.
im going to clean it really good and see if that doesn't fix it then check to see if its been bedded next ill take it to a gunsmith and have him look at the bore, if that checks out then ill take the scope rings and bases off and reinstall them.. ill try the fore end pressure too. oh,yea, i am hand loading so ill play around with the seating depth. i don't have much time before hunting season starts. thanks for the ideas.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
I would suspect 2 things causing that weird group, first would be fore end tip pressure, and second would be bedding and action screw tightness.
I would re-torque the action screws after taking the stock off and checking for any rubbing in the inletting, this is a sign of movement, which will need to be remedied by glass bedding the action.
Also check to make sure the recoil lug is in contact with the stock, have seen weird groups like that because a piece of gunk was stopping the recoil lug making full contact with the stock, and also have seen groups go way out by twigs being trapped between barrel and stock near the knox form.
Cheers.
gun)
I would re-torque the action screws after taking the stock off and checking for any rubbing in the inletting, this is a sign of movement, which will need to be remedied by glass bedding the action.
Also check to make sure the recoil lug is in contact with the stock, have seen weird groups like that because a piece of gunk was stopping the recoil lug making full contact with the stock, and also have seen groups go way out by twigs being trapped between barrel and stock near the knox form.
Cheers.
gun)
frankinaustin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2013
- Messages
- 293
If youre shooting with a bi-pod, take it off, just to make sure that's not affecting the groups.
If all the good advice that everyone has offered is put into affect, then my guess is you have a scatter node.
If all the good advice that everyone has offered is put into affect, then my guess is you have a scatter node.
RustyRick
Well-Known Member
Check the recoil lug and see if it's bottomed out either in the stock or landed on the bottom metal front screw tube. ???
i cleaned the barrel really good and tried to take the action out of the stock to see if it was bedded but the screw in front of the trigger guard wouldn't budge. i cranked on it as hard as i could but it wont loosen. i don't know if someone used lock-tight on it or what but its too tight for me to remove. im pretty sure the bases and rings are on tight because i checked them when i installed the scope. i took a different scope off to put the zeiss on. i might have to take it to the guns smith.
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
If it has locktite on it, it's probably not the super high strength and a bit of localized heat (like a propane torch) will soften it so you can back it out.
I use super high strength wicking locktite on machine assemblies but it's only available to commercial users...and it's insanely expensive.
Heat it up a bit and try backing it out.
I use super high strength wicking locktite on machine assemblies but it's only available to commercial users...and it's insanely expensive.
Heat it up a bit and try backing it out.
