SOLD/EXPIRED WARNING!!!!!!!! If you sell and ship BRASS……..READ THIS!

Discussion in 'Sold/Expired' started by SouthPawShooter, Apr 26, 2015.

  1. SouthPawShooter

    SouthPawShooter Well-Known Member

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    I received this on facebook today and wanted to share this with all forums I'm apart of.

    This was a post submitted by Mark Classens over on one of the reloading pages. Mark has been selling brass for sometime now and has a well established brass business.

    Ever ship primed brass through USPS???? Well, I just had a conversation with Nik Davrados the other day before he almost shipped out some primed brass. Little did he know how close he came to a shutdown. This is NOT going to be short, but well worthwhile...... Up until a few months back, I never thought twice about shipping out brass where there were some primed brass in the mix. I truly thought they were okay via USPS or UPS. Then one day I was yapping with Wes Sage out in WA and he told me DON'T do that. He proceeded to tell me a story about a local guy he knew that shipped some brass with some primed ones in the mix. The box broke, the postal inspector got it, and confronted him. He didn't know the rules! So he was slapped with a huge fine, can't remember if it was $15,000 or $50,000, but it was a bunch of house payments!! On top of that he is facing some jail time. Well, that was enough for me. I stopped doing it. the other day when Nik was going to ship his brass and I shared the same story, so he didn't. Well.....this was an eye opener for me, guys. What happens next will scare the Be Jesus out of you. Last Friday night I boxed up 9 packages of brass, scheduled a pickup for Saturday morning, printed the labels, and set them out on the front step for the carrier. Early Saturday morning I get woken up out of a dead sleep by my phone. It is the U.S. Postmaster, and wants to talk to Mark Claessens from Big Dog Brass. He said and I quote, "Mr. Claessens, I am going to ask you one question and I want you to give me the straight up truthful answer. And don't lie to me. I see you are shipping out 9 boxes today: are there any live rounds of ammunition in there?" I said no. He then said, "Are there any primers or brass casings with live primers in them?" I said no. He asked me if I have EVER.....EVER at ANY time shipped out a live round of ammo or a live primer. I said never a live round, but truthfully I had shipped brass with live primers before. I didn't want to lie. Then I told him the story that Wes told me and he said I should thank Wes for saving me from some fines and jail time. VERY SERIOUS!!! He then asked me this, "Okay, if I open up every single package that you are shipping today, will I find even ONE live primer in there?" I said, "No. I will never ship a live primer again as long as I live and have not since my discussion with Wes back before Christmas." He said he may check them anyway. THEN he asked this, "How about this package being delivered to you from Nik Davrados, will there be any live ammo or live primers in there?" I told him NO. Well, they opened up Nik's package and checked it and then re-sealed it and delivered it. So had I NOT had that talk with NIk, whom I love deeply, Nik would now be facing possibly $50,000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail. Period. No apologies. He further said to me, "Your name has come up over here and I can't tell you who said what. But I needed to ask and check." MAN, I would love to know who would report me like that!!!!! The point is that the postal service is on the watch, guys. They really do care and they care a LOT about this stuff. You can NOT ship any primers that have not been detonated. Period. And no live ammo. We all need to play by the rules, guys. It will be no picnic if you are caught. I don't know how much "profit" i have made over the past couple of years, as this is not how I earn a living. It is fun for me and gives me some extra money for reloading. But I can assure all of you that those fines would put me in the ground and FAR outweigh any pennies I have earned selling brass. And the jail time would not only kill me, but my real estate career would be over. Oh, one last and funny thing. After he got through with all the questions he complimented me on the thoroughness of my answers and my knowledge of reloading components and how they function. Then he asks, "So, do you ever run across any .30 Remington brass? I reload a bunch of calibers and am in need of a bunch of those." So I sent him my entire inventory list of over 100,000 cases of brass in 184 calibers that I stock and at his request, I put him on my waiting list for the 30 Remington!!! Now how cool is that??? You know what would be cooler? Is if a bunch of you were thankful for me sharing this and helped me find this U.S. Postmaster 100 of the .30 Remington. I will gladly just give them to him and pay it forward. Honestly. now....I am done. Look forward to hearing thoughts from y'all. And I think I will copy and paste this to a couple other groups, as I had planned on sharing this anyway.
     
  2. predator 22

    predator 22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing. Before i shipped brass the first time i read the usps rules and called my local postmaster or i would have shipped a bunch of live primers.
     
  3. Lefty Lucas

    Lefty Lucas Well-Known Member

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    Good read. If you pay the hazmat fee is it ok to ship?

    Thanks
    Lefty Lucas
     
  4. fordracer

    fordracer Well-Known Member

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    Good informative read.
    As an individual, I tried to ship a bunch of primers to a guy in GA. I could not even find a place to ship the primers out by paying the Hazemat Fees.

    Thanks,

    John Fitch
     
  5. Immortal

    Immortal Well-Known Member

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    That's why I ship all my loaded ammo via UPS.
     
  6. fordracer

    fordracer Well-Known Member

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    Loaded ammo and powder & primers do not have the same shipping requirements.
     
  7. Rick Richard

    Rick Richard Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  8. pods8

    pods8 Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was general knowledge (by reloaders) that brass can not have live primers in it to ship non-hazmat. Glad you didn't get into trouble.
     
  9. 16Bore

    16Bore Well-Known Member

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    Surprised there was ever any doubt.
     
  10. WapitiBob

    WapitiBob Well-Known Member

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    Nothing surprises me anymore.
     
  11. corym465

    corym465 Member

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    I don't get it. Why are primed cases considered hazardous? SAAMI has done testing to show that there is no danger here, at least not beyond loaded ammo. And that goes for powder as well.

    I make a living as a System Safety Engineer. I say that to say there are many things that you can order and have shipped from amazon that present a greater hazard than primed brass.

    Can someone please post the actual statute that outlaws the shipment of primed brass?
     
  12. pods8

    pods8 Well-Known Member

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    No comment on the legitimacy of the policy but by definition they are explosives so no go via USPS. The other carries have provisions but you need to read/comply with their policies.

    USPS:
    34 Mailability by Hazard Class

    341 Explosives (Hazard Class 1)

    341.1 Definition

    An explosive is any substance or article, including a device, that is designed to function by explosion (an extremely rapid release of gas and heat) or that, by chemical reaction within itself, is able to function in a similar manner even if not designed to function by explosion, unless the substance or article is otherwise classed under the provisions in 49 CFR.
    341.11 Class 1 Divisions

    Hazard Class 1 has six divisions as follows:

    • Division 1.1 consists of explosives that have a mass explosion hazard. Examples are black powder, nitroglycerine (desensitized), dynamite, most types of torpedoes, and mercury fulminate.
    • Division 1.2 consists of explosives that have a projection hazard but not a mass explosion hazard. Examples are certain types of fireworks, some types of detonating fuses, and some types of ammunition.
    • Division 1.3 consists of explosives that have a fire hazard and either a minor blast or minor projection hazard or both, but not a mass explosion hazard. Examples are sodium picramate, some liquid and solid propellants, and some rocket motors.
    • Division 1.4 consists of explosives that present a minor blast hazard. Examples are common fireworks, toy caps, empty primed grenades, and some small arms ammunition.
    • Division 1.5 consists of very insensitive explosives that have a mass explosion hazard. Examples are type E blasting agents, some type B blasting agents, and very insensitive explosive substances.
    • Division 1.6 consists of extremely insensitive articles that do not have a mass explosion hazard.
    341.12 Class 1 Compatibility Codes

    Each division in Class 1 is further assigned a compatibility group code. The compatibility code consists of one letter (A–H, J–L, N, or S) that is positioned after the division number (e.g., 1.1A, 1.2C, 1.4S) and refers to the transportation and storage controls necessary to prevent potential hazards. See 49 CFR 173.52 for a more detailed description of the Class 1 compatibility codes.
    341.2 Mailability, Packaging, and Marking

    Explosives are generally prohibited from mailing under 18 U.S.C. 1716. The following conditions apply to the mailing of explosives:

    • International Mail. All explosives are prohibited.
    • Domestic Mail via Air Transportation. All explosives are prohibited.
    • Domestic Mail via Surface Transportation. Generally, explosives are prohibited. The only exceptions are for Division 1.4S toy propellant devices and safety fuses that have been approved by the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC, prior to mailing as stated in 341. A shipping paper is required.
    341.21 Nonmailable Explosives

    Nonmailable explosives found in the mailstream must be immediately reported in accordance with POM 139.117.
    Nonmailable explosives include, but are not limited to, the following:

    • Common Fireworks. Fireworks are classified as Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 explosives depending on the degree of hazard. Fireworks include roman candles, skyrockets, helicopter–type rockets, cylindrical and cone fountains, pyrotechnic wheels, illuminating torches, firecrackers, salutes, and combinations of items that are designed to produce any of the aforementioned types of effects. All types of fireworks are prohibited from mailing.
    • Fuses. Fuses are classified as Division 1.3 or 1.4 explosives depending on the degree of hazard. All types of fuses (except safety fuses as permitted under 341.22) are prohibited from mailing.
    • Small Arms Ammunition. Ammunition is classified as a Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 explosive, depending on the degree of hazard. Ammunition that is regulated as a Class 1 explosive and designed to be fired from a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, as well as associated primers and blank cartridges (including those designed for tools) and propellant powder for use in any firearm, is prohibited from mailing.
    341.22 Mailable Explosives

    The following specific types of explosives may be mailed only when the applicable conditions are met. Full responsibility rests with the mailer to comply with Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) regulations before mailing.

    • Toy Propellant Devices. The proper shipping name for a toy propellant device is “model rocket motor” or “igniters.” A toy propellant device assigned UN0454 or NA0323 and classed as a Division 1.4S explosive is eligible for mailing in domestic mail via surface transportation only when prior written permission has been obtained from the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC. A device approved for mailing is subject to the following conditions:
      1. Each device must be ignitable by electrical means only; contain no more than 30 g (1.07 oz) of propellant; and produce less than 80 newton seconds of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second.
      2. Each device must be constructed so that all chemical ingredients are preloaded into a cylindrical paper or similarly constructed nonmetallic tube that does not fragment into sharp, hard pieces; must be designed so that it will not burst under normal conditions of use; must be incapable of spontaneous ignition under 500° F; and must not contain any type of explosive or pyrotechnic warhead other than a small, activation–charge, parachute–recovery system.
      3. Each mailpiece containing approved devices must be prepared for mailing following Packaging Instruction 1A in Appendix C. A shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods is required.
    • Safety Fuses (UN0105). Safety fuses consist of a core of black powder over–spun with yarns, waterproofing compounds, and/or tapes. Safety fuses assigned UN0105 as a Division 1.4S explosive may be mailed in domestic mail via surface transportation only when prior written approval has been granted by the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC. Mailable safety fuses must be prepared using Packaging Instruction 1B in Appendix C. A shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods is required.Note: “Safety Fuses” are not to be confused with “fusees.” Fusees are rail and highway distress signals that are nonmailable Class 4 flammable solids.
    • Shotgun Hulls, Empty Casings, Nonmetallic Shotgun Hulls, or Casings Without Primers. These articles are not classified as explosives or hazardous materials under 49 CFR and, therefore, are mailable subject to the applicable mailing rules (see 227).
     
  13. corym465

    corym465 Member

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    Thank you! So where does primed brass fall within this. It might be able to be classified with 1.6, but then so can a lot of items that are commonly shipped.

    When dealing with the hazard that is fire/explosion, you deal with it in terms of a "Fire Triangle".

    For Fire/Explosion you need three things, an Oxidizer, an Ignition, and a FUEL source. There is no fuel source with processed and primed brass. Especially if they are placed inside of a plastic container.

     
  14. pods8

    pods8 Well-Known Member

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    1.4 would be my interpretation. They mentioned grenade primers and also toy caps. Basically little things that blow up.