I have a 308 win, just sits in safe. Looking to build 6.5 creedmoor or 260 rem. I know the cons of action, I just happen to like them. Appears more and more smiths dont want to touch these actions, am I missing something? You get squat if I just sell the gun. Hopefully j e chimes in here.
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vanguard/howa action build
- Thread starter howco
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270Weatherby
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2009
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- 124
Good question... I'm in the same boat with one as well.
Damascus
Well-Known Member
I've had several Howa 1500's and Vanguard rifles brought to me by customers for accurizing work, so what exactly are you worried about?
There's a lack of aftermarket parts out there (compared to the 700), as well as less available tooling - so when I blueprint a 1500, I can't go as thorough as I could with a 700 (ie- squaring lug faces, reaming inside threads, etc), basically all I do to 1500 actions is square up the receiver face, face the bolt, and lap the bolt lugs. I also check to make sure the flat rear portion of the integral recoil lug is square with the action.
The trigger design on these aren't the best out there, but with a little careful stoning/polishing, fine tuning, and perhaps reduced power springs, a decently crisp 2.5 lb. trigger is quite easy to obtain.
I personally have no qualms about building or customizing one of these actions. What do you have in mind for this rifle?
There's a lack of aftermarket parts out there (compared to the 700), as well as less available tooling - so when I blueprint a 1500, I can't go as thorough as I could with a 700 (ie- squaring lug faces, reaming inside threads, etc), basically all I do to 1500 actions is square up the receiver face, face the bolt, and lap the bolt lugs. I also check to make sure the flat rear portion of the integral recoil lug is square with the action.
The trigger design on these aren't the best out there, but with a little careful stoning/polishing, fine tuning, and perhaps reduced power springs, a decently crisp 2.5 lb. trigger is quite easy to obtain.
I personally have no qualms about building or customizing one of these actions. What do you have in mind for this rifle?
Not really worried, just wondered if more issues were arising. I have another build on vanguard that I am pleased with. Never really cared for 700s. Personal preference with loads of limitations, I know.I tend to like rifles smiths dont care to service, a bolts included
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
The Vanguard is one of the best bargains for the money. they are very good actions and with the right factory stock (Laminate)very accurate.
The main reason Smiths don't care to work on them is the Metric barrel/receiver threads.
This can be overcome even if the Lathe is not Metric.
They are not tricky to bed and good aftermarket triggers can be found.
Enough said.
J E CUSTOM
The main reason Smiths don't care to work on them is the Metric barrel/receiver threads.
This can be overcome even if the Lathe is not Metric.
They are not tricky to bed and good aftermarket triggers can be found.
Enough said.
J E CUSTOM
Hired Gun
Well-Known Member
I like Vanguards. I really like all the features you get right out of the box. A one piece fluted bolt, an M-16 extractor, integral lug and an enclosed bolt shroud for eye safety. They are one of the most accurate rifles out of the box you can buy. The newer ones are all sub moa. The best thing about a Remington is the aftermarket support. That's good because they need it.
Tooling for Vanguards? It's the exact same I use for Remingtons. Action truing is done by single point cutting critical surfaces. Cutters don't care what brand it is and most current lathes cut metric threads at the flip of a switch. I would never cut a receiver face without single pointing the threads in the same setup. How would you ever know if they were on the same plan? Otherwise you stand a great risk of making it worse. Tap or mandrel style cutters will never achieve the results of a single point truing on a lathe. Vanguards are usually really straight to begin with meaning they shouldn't need any truing. Of the Vanguard's I've checked out, I have found they rival the precision of the custom actions.
Truing an integral lug? Just what is gained by that? Epoxy bedding will cancel out any irregularities should one exist.
Vanguards are a good value and make a great foundation for a custom build. My only complaint is Jewel doesn't make a trigger for them.
Tooling for Vanguards? It's the exact same I use for Remingtons. Action truing is done by single point cutting critical surfaces. Cutters don't care what brand it is and most current lathes cut metric threads at the flip of a switch. I would never cut a receiver face without single pointing the threads in the same setup. How would you ever know if they were on the same plan? Otherwise you stand a great risk of making it worse. Tap or mandrel style cutters will never achieve the results of a single point truing on a lathe. Vanguards are usually really straight to begin with meaning they shouldn't need any truing. Of the Vanguard's I've checked out, I have found they rival the precision of the custom actions.
Truing an integral lug? Just what is gained by that? Epoxy bedding will cancel out any irregularities should one exist.
Vanguards are a good value and make a great foundation for a custom build. My only complaint is Jewel doesn't make a trigger for them.
Damascus
Well-Known Member
I true my rifles with a Manson Accurizing kit, and just purchased a PTG Gen 2 reamer kit - perhaps it isn't as perfect as a lathe, but then again, I am not building benchrest rifles - I build real-world rifles that are going to be shot in F-class or tactical matches, or in the field, and I have yet to build one that was left wanting in the accuracy dept.
I agree that a $7000+ quality lathe is the most precise option, but in my opinion, there are too many other variables involved in determining the rifle's potential that whatever tiny miniscule gain in accuracy I may get from a lathe setup isn't worth the cost, setup time, and risk compared with how true I can get an action with my "lathe-less" blueprinting tools.
I have found that a good action that has a square face/lug/barrel shoulder, square lug faces, lapped lugs with 100% contact, precise chamber, and match bore - the rifle is going to be more accurate than 99% of the shooters behind it...
Perhaps if I start building benchrest rifles (or rifles that resemble a 20 lb. pressure barrel mounted in a stock needing a bipod that looks like something off a star wars set) that need to be capable of .10 MOA, I'll invest in a larger lathe that I would trust cutting on an action with.
My comment about facing the rear of the integral lug - I was referring to a Howa 1500 that I worked on several years ago in .300 Win mounted in a B&C stock that kept having trouble with floating zeroes, long story short was tracked down to the integral lug being slightly canted, causing off-center pressure on the action under recoil. Since it was butted up against an alloy bedding block, glass bedding wasn't my first choice as a fix. I simply measure and re-faced the lug with an end mill, problem solved.
Every smith' has their own thoughts and practices on performing certain jobs, or working on certain rifles, I simply stated mine concerning said rifle.
snox801
Well-Known Member
I have 6x45 built on a Howa action. Really like it still working on loads but it seems to really be coming around.
65WSM
Well-Known Member
I own both the Rifle Basix and JARD trigger for the Vanguard Howa. The JARD is my favorite trigger of all. I own both M70 and M700 Jewel triggers but they are not any better than the JARD for the Vanguard Howa. The Rifle Basix is great too but is just a little heavier pull weight. Not enough difference to notice hunting but you can tell off the bench.
65WSM
Well-Known Member
I am sorry they are Jewell triggers not Jewel. My bad.
cummin_un_glued
Well-Known Member
I have a custom vanguard rifle and i'm starting my second custom vanguard. i'm with JE and Hired Gun I think they are a very under rated action and imo you don't get a better action buying a 700. My only complaint is with the length of the action/internal box mag but the mag can be converted.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I have 3 VG 1s.
.223 The barreled action is still there but nothing else and it wears a QUE 'BOSS'. Sub 1/2 moa but only with one load because of the 12 twist and it falls apart after 300 yards. I consider it semi custom until it gets it's 28" 9 twist Pac-Nor barrel.
.243 Became a 260 Remington with a 28" 'Target Weight' barrel. All that's left of the original is the action. 1" groups a 300 yards. 1000 yards still sub 1/2 moa.
300 WSM stayed 300 WSM but all that's left of the original is the action. Loves factory Federal Premium 165 TSX but my target load is 208 A-MAX. Sub 1/2 moa at 700 yards.
A good action. Yes the metric threads are a PIA but I had Pac-Nor 'pre-fit'. Works great.
I don't know why people say there aren't after market mods. I've found everything I want.
.223 The barreled action is still there but nothing else and it wears a QUE 'BOSS'. Sub 1/2 moa but only with one load because of the 12 twist and it falls apart after 300 yards. I consider it semi custom until it gets it's 28" 9 twist Pac-Nor barrel.
.243 Became a 260 Remington with a 28" 'Target Weight' barrel. All that's left of the original is the action. 1" groups a 300 yards. 1000 yards still sub 1/2 moa.
300 WSM stayed 300 WSM but all that's left of the original is the action. Loves factory Federal Premium 165 TSX but my target load is 208 A-MAX. Sub 1/2 moa at 700 yards.
A good action. Yes the metric threads are a PIA but I had Pac-Nor 'pre-fit'. Works great.
I don't know why people say there aren't after market mods. I've found everything I want.
