Todd Hodnett: Shooting on a Clean Bore

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by C.O. Shooter, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. C.O. Shooter

    C.O. Shooter Well-Known Member

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    [ame=http://youtu.be/qbMuknl677A]Todd Hodnett- shooting on a clean bore - YouTube[/ame]

    Accuracy 1st: Company

    I thought it was informative! Any other thoughts. I know this isn't anything new, just wanted to share!
     
  2. supercrossbmx69

    supercrossbmx69 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing.

    When he talks about the break in process, after he talks about the shoot then clean shoot then clean, for ten rounds, then clean every five shots, etc. should I be stripping all the copper out (after the first ten shots) or is he referring to shoot 5 shots then clean to get all the carbon out? This is something I am confused about when breaking in a new barrel.
     
  3. C.O. Shooter

    C.O. Shooter Well-Known Member

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    The way I am understanding it is to remove the carbon!
     
  4. c_bass16

    c_bass16 Well-Known Member

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    There are two points he makes that would suggest he is referring to cleaning all the carbon AND copper out of the barrel during the entire break in process.

    At about the :40 second mark he says that he "doesn't strip copper out of his guns AFTER he does the break in process."

    Also, at about the 1:01 mark when he describes HIS break in process...he says between his shot strings 1 clean 2 clean 3 clean etc then 1,2 clean 3, 4 clean etc...
    he says "we're stripping all the carbon out, THEN we take all the copper out, with something like sweets or any of the other COPPER solvents"

    My understanding is that it is difficult to remove COPPER without first removing CARBON.

    SERIES ONE
    1 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    2 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    3 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    4 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    5 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch

    SERIES 2 (copper should already be less obvious)
    1 shot, 2nd shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    3 shot, 4 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    5 shot, 6 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch

    Series 3 (copper should be even less pronounced)
    1 shot, 2nd shot, 3 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch
    4 shot, 5 shot, 6 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch

    Series 4 (my or may not see any copper at all)
    1 shot, 2nd shot, 3 shot, 4 shot, 5 shot
    remove carbon, remove copper, dry patch


    Once you start to see VERY LITTLE or no copper at all, you can just clean the carbon out and let the copper slowly build a light layer of "protection"

    My understanding is that the light layer of copper, actually helps to seals your steel barrel from the damage that the carbon can do.

    When I used this method on my last build, my 7mm rem, I noticed copper clear out at the lands of the muzzle after the first 5 shots, but after series 3...I wasn't getting ANY copper fowling at all...so I concluded the break in to be complete.
     
  5. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    No there is nothing good about copper fouling.
    Also carbon is the most difficult thing on earth to remove. Your copper is long gone before really working on carbon. So if you still have copper, you still have carbon(just not on the top).
     
  6. earlcurtis67

    earlcurtis67 Well-Known Member

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    No there is nothing good about copper fouling.
    shouldnt it be " theres nothing good about too much copper fouling"? I preformed the afore mentioned break in on a new vanguard and accuracy didnt start to improve until i had put 20 to 30 rounds through it, now im shooting a little more than moa with two different factory ammo.
    I will not ( unless im convinced otherwise) copper clean the bore utill I see a decrease in accuracy.......e
     
  7. c_bass16

    c_bass16 Well-Known Member

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    If there is nothing good about copper fowling, then what possible reason could there be for leaving it in the barrel?:rolleyes:

    It's sure not going to damage steel.

    Now if it builds to a level that is causing pressure spikes, then you've got a serious problem, but that's not what we're talking about here.
     
  8. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason to leave it in a barrel. Totally clean & prefouled will shoot as good as it's going to.
    Are there ANY barrel makers out there tellin you that you need copper left in there?

    That someone who doesn't clean their barrels has convinced themselves that they don't have to, does not mean they couldn't do well otherwise. It probably means they don't have much for copper accumulation.
    And when it takes quite a few shots to achieve stable foul, it doesn't mean copper is helping you. It means whatever you're leaving in your bore takes a while to burn out.

    I put bores away cleaner than I pulled them, every time, even if I shot only once. They are cleaned to white metal(as verified via borescope), flushed/dried out with alcohol, and dry prefouled with WS2 before they go back in the safe.
    When I pull them #1 shot is as good as #100, and even though I could go a couple hundred rounds if not more before affected by copper, it hurts nothing at all to stay on top of fouling,, copper, and especially carbon.
    In the past I have had my share of barrels that copper fouled out by 20-30 rounds, and two that were spent by 8-10rounds. After treating those barrels with Tubb's FF, shooting between copper was extended considerably. Nothing about that copper was helping accuracy.
    My better barrels, that barely copper foul, also do not 'need' copper to shoot.
     
  9. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, every barrel is different but most have a lot of similarities. A few years ago I bought a used 25-06 Sendero. When I got it home, I took it straight out and shot a .224" group with it using some factory ammo that came with the rifle. I took it home and proceeded to clean it. It literally took me 3 days, several hours a day scrubbing (with nylon brush), soaking and wet patching, to completely clean it using BTE. Carbon and copper came out in multiple layers. I took it to get bore scoped and was told the bore was severely fire cracked and the smith was astounded at the group I shot prior to cleaning. After that, it would not shoot well after 50-60 shots, but it shot sub 1/2 MOA up to that but it did require 2 or 3 fouling shots after a cleaning.

    The primary purpose of breaking in a barrel is to wear down roughness from tooling that rips copper from your bullets when you shoot them and causes copper build up. It is to reduce the amount of fouling and copper build up in your bore when you shoot. Probably 60-80% of the fouling that builds up in your bore happens with the first bullet down the tube. This is apparent when you go to clean after one shot and it takes almost as long as after 50 shots. It serves absolutly no purpose to fire more than 1 shot between cleaning during break-in. You are only pi$$ing powder and bullets down the tube along with barrel life and accomplishing almost nothing. You shoot one and clean until you deem the break-in complete.

    What reason is there to dry patch before the cleaning is done? It is a waste of time and patches and more chance to damage your crown, bore and throat with unnecessary strokes of the cleaning rod. You dry patch, then turn around and add solvent again. It makes no sense. I scrub (with nylon brush) to sturate the bore with solvent, then let it soak a little. Then wet patch it until the patches show pale color. Then scrub and soak and wet patch again. I repeat this cycle until I see pale color with a wet patch after the scrub and soak and then I dry patch.... done.

    I leave a trace amount of copper in the bore to reduce the number of required fouling shots needed to get back to accuracy. I call it a 90% clean. Probably more like 95%.

    This idea of not cleaning the copper out is baffling to me. I have not had a barrel yet that would not fall off in accuracy once it got fouled to a certain point. First shot does most of the fouling and each successive shot lays down a little more until the barrel says I quit. With some barrels that might be 30 rounds and some it might be over 200.
     
  10. LaHunter

    LaHunter Well-Known Member

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    In the video, Todd states that he cleans the carbon from his rifle barrel everyday when he is done shooting.
    Towards the end of the video, he mentions M-Pro 7 as the solvent that he likes to use. He says it is very good at removing carbon from the barrel.
    I guess we can assume that M-Pro7 is his 'everyday' barrel cleaner that he refers to early in the video when he mentions cleaning carbon out daily.
    On the label of M-Pro 7, it states that this product removes carbon, lead, and most copper fouling. If M-Pro 7 is his carbon cleaner that he uses daily, then in fact, he is actually removing copper from his barrel on a daily basis, also.

    Re watch the video and see what you think.
     
  11. earlcurtis67

    earlcurtis67 Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about this subject since I orginally commented on my cleaning regimen ( or lack there of). My primary reason for not copper cleaning as much as has been suggested is to give me peice of mind for a cold bore shot.
    My .270 is my "hunting" rifle, at the end of the season it gets scrubed down with sweets, oiled then put back in the safe.
    The S2 on the other hand I purchased to shoot. I know that earlier I said I had 20-30 rounds fired since break in, but after counting the leftover brass the # is 16, all factory ammo. I also came to the realization that the improvement in accuracy may be the improvement in my shooting form rather than fouling.
    Some of us have talked about cleaning when accuracy falls off, but then it occured to me theres no way of knowing exactly when that will happen, so I'm willing to give some of ya'lls sugestions a try. I dont know that ill clean after every shot, but will clean after every range session and go from there.
    I have reloaded 85gn nossler ballistic tips and some hornady 117gn SPBT. How would ya'll recommend I clean while trying to work up two different rounds while at the range.........E