Stuck on caliber decision - input appreciated

[geocodyrgia]

Hello all, figured I'd bring this thing that's been rattling around in my head to LRH looking for some differing opinions. The root of the question is the age-old "6.5/270/280" question. I came across an old Savage 270 in a shop recently and couldn't leave it sitting on the shelf for the $150 the guy was asking for it (it looked like it has sat in a basement for 30 years). I've had plans on starting a project gun and the opportunity was just too good to pass up.

For my situation: I live in N. GA so have opportunities for lots of deer and some hogs and coyote. I've got Rugers in 25-06 (tang safety) and 270 (M77 MKII) already but am thinking I will eventually convert the Ruger 270 to a 338-06 (for the CRF) in case I go looking for bigger stuff at "shorter" distances some day (<200 yds). Which leaves me with a hole in the "mid-range" calibers eventually. I do handload for everything I shoot today and would be handloading for whatever this Savage action turns into. I'd rather not buy $200+ dies, but in the grander scheme it's a small price to pay for something I'd probably hand down to my kids.

The purpose of the gun I'd like to build would be primarily something that could be at least somewhat competitive in long-range paper punching (I have aspirations of trying my hand at one of the shoots in FL or AL in the coming years) while still being appropriate for long-range hunting of GA whitetail deer, hogs and potentially elk (I'm ok with being picky about my shots).

My thoughts are that I want to stay in the '06 case head size and if I'm building something, I want to be able to push the highest BC I can to at least 2800 fps. I'm expecting to use at least a 24" barrel but am not looking at 30". Thinking probably 24-26", but maybe 28" if there's a strong case.

6.5-06 - I know that I can easily exceed 2800 fps with the 140 and have seen custom bullets even up to 165 grains that could be awesome out of this chambering. My fear here is barrel life and not really getting everything I could out of the '06 cartridge (I have no interest in running bullets at 3200+ fps, I rather run a heavy bullet at good speed than light bullets at lightspeed)

270ai - I'm already running a 270 and do really love the round. Obviously the 150's are potent on anything deer related with the right bullets but offerings over 150 are somewhat scarce. The new Berger EOL 170's are impressive but they're about it for what I think would be top-end bullet weight for a 270 and I don't see other folks jumping to offer more heavy-for-caliber bullets. I would probably go with the AI for less case stretching, a little more oomph (I think it would put the 170gr over the 2800 fps mark) and the fact that I could still use factory ammo if I needed to or felt like it. Being as easy to find as it is, I think this would be an advantage.

280 Sherman - While I would have to tool up to reload an entirely different cartridge and caliber, I think it could be worth it. I also think that Rich's Sherman chambering could put the 180gr bullets and possibly even the Berger 195 EOL over 2800 fps. Even the 180's would give me BC advantage over both the 6.5 and the 270, keep the speed where I'd want and allow me to leverage some of the slow powders to get these big heavies flying well without going to a magnum. I'd say that the 280 gives me all the "huntability" I'm looking for while bringing the great long range bullets to the table should I want to compete with it. I'm sure recoil will be a bit more but my Ruger 270 in its skeleton stock broke me in pretty well when it comes to recoil so I don't foresee that being a problem. I've found the advantages to a good Limbsaver pad and I can shoot that old 270 for 100 rounds now no problem. From my perspective, the downside to the 280 is the cost of dies and having to fireform brass. Both easily overcome with 1-time expense/operations, but worth considering.

Just to have it be said, here's a small list of the other cartridges I'd considered and passed on: anything with a belt, 26/27/28/30 Nosler (maybe for a later time), 7LRM, 6.5/270/7WSM, 6-06, 243ai, 6mm Rem, 260, 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor, 6 and 6.5x47L........you get the idea.

So there it is, do I go with the lighter 6.5's with very good BC's and push them faster/easier, go with the big 7mm with their superior BC's pushed not quite as fast or split the difference and try to build a gun around a single bullet that may or may not be the best in the gun? And let's not kid ourselves, at the end of the day when it comes to the hunting aspect, all 3 of these will be nearly indistinguishable from each other in on-game performance. The choice really is the ultimate splitting of hairs, but perhaps it's a hair worth splitting for the sake of conversation.

 

[MudRunner2005]

.280 Sherman

 

[FEENIX]

270ai - I'm already running a 270 and do really love the round. Obviously the 150's are potent on anything deer related with the right bullets but offerings over 150 are somewhat scarce. The new Berger EOL 170's are impressive but they're about it for what I think would be top-end bullet weight for a 270 and I don't see other folks jumping to offer more heavy-for-caliber bullets. I would probably go with the AI for less case stretching, a little more oomph (I think it would put the 170gr over the 2800 fps mark) and the fact that I could still use factory ammo if I needed to or felt like it. Being as easy to find as it is, I think this would be an advantage.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f22/my-budget-270-ai-97745/ is built on Savage 110 LA with 30" SS Lilja barrel 1:8" 3G #6 contour pushing the 175 Matrix VLD at 2993 FPS at AI configuration and 2919 FPS at .270 Win configuration, my current accuracy loads. When my 175s are gone, will be switching to 165s and eventually going with the 170s.

Good luck on your project ... Cheers!

Ed

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I like the 6.5-06. You could AI this if you wanted too. Everybody is going to have their personal reason for the different answers you get.

My real addition to the conversation is I think you should get a faster twist barrel than what is standard for which ever one you choose. 7" for .264, 7" for .277, and 8" for .284. These will open the door for better bullets in the future and work well with current main stream bullets.

Steve

 

[BountyHunter]

I like the 6.5s a lot.

I have a 6.5-06AI and just testing now with RL 26 and Berger 130s.

MV is easily 3180 so far with no signs of pressure at all.

You have great brass available and easy to FF and lasts a long time. Proven loads out there to start from.

I have some Hornady ELDX I am going to try for developing a one bullet do all load.

I am just looking for easy 3000 fps load with 140 class bullets that shoots well, great accuracy and that should be no problem.

Fireforming is easy, quality dies are easy to find and in the big scheme of things, dies are inexpensive compared to everything else. I do not consider die expense a major factor in my choice.

I would opt for a 1-7 or 1-7.5 twist barrel for some of the bigger and heavier bullets.

I competed for 4 years and won a lot with the 6.5-06AI and got over 1500 rds down the tubes before I lost top 1K BR level accuracy.
6.5s are great game getters and very easy to shoot competitively at 1k or steel matches. You have the Cool Acres shooting range right there in N GA outside of Swainsboro.

 

[geocodyrgia]

Great point about barrel twist and that is something that I had been considering but didn't mention. For the 6.5 I had planned on going with at least 1:8 if not slightly faster with the hope that the popularity of the cartridge will push for heavier bullets with some of the magnum/over bore offerings. I'm thinking 140gr is probably as light as I want to go, realizing there are lots of other great 6.5 bullets, but I'd be looking to shoot 140-ish to 165 (found one custom maker this heavy) bullets. The ELDX particularly caught my attention.

For the 270 I'd go 1:8 to shoot the 170 Berger. Feenix, those are incredible speeds! Do you find a 30" barrel to be awkward if you have to carry it? Realistically I'm got other rifles that will carry well, there's no particular reason I'd have to limit the barrel length, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on if you use your rig for hunting.

The 280 would get at least a 1:8 if not SLIGHTLY faster if I really wanted to chase the heavy bullets. My focus would be 168-180gr loads but I'd try the Berger 195's but don't really see myself going any lighter than 162 for any reason. If I wanted to shoot 140-150gr, I'd use a 270.

BountyHunter, in your opinion do you think your barrel life would have stretched further with heavier bullets moving more slowly? As you said, I like the 6.5 for being able to easily get the heaviest offerings in that caliber moving well. The '06 case just seems to be an easy fit for 140-150 grain bullets but maxing out around 170-180 grain (give or take based on caliber) for the speed I'm trying to stay above.

Also, thanks for the tip about Swainsboro! I'm still trying to figure out how to get info on matches that might be in my area.

-Chad

 

[toddc]

A 6.5 or 277 will NEVER equal a 7mm for killing power or LRH. You can play with the numbers all you want but a 280 Sherman spitting a 175 ELD-X at 3k will slaughter any other choice. A 6.5-06AI is a fun rig and I have had a few as predator/deer rigs. For a deer/larger rig the 7mm bore is light years ahead of the smaller stuff. The 270 would be better but it is still hamstrung by bullet selection, if your build doesn't like the 170EOL WHAT NOW?
Recoil? BRAKE!
Both of your smaller choices are NEAT rounds but practically, a 7mm will walk away from them in nearly every category especially in killing power.

 

[elkaholic]

280 Sherman is easy to form and there is some very good brass available including Norma and RWS. I have fired the 175's over 3100 in a 26" barrel and they will run 3000+ all day long without destroying brass. You can reach 3000' with the 195's, but they perform best in the 2900's. It is the most you can get out of an '06 head size and will keep up with most 7RM's. Barrel life is good with the 40 degree shoulder .311" neck. .....Rich

 

[bigngreen]

A 6.5 or 277 will NEVER equal a 7mm for killing power or LRH. You can play with the numbers all you want but a 280 Sherman spitting a 175 ELD-X at 3k will slaughter any other choice. A 6.5-06AI is a fun rig and I have had a few as predator/deer rigs. For a deer/larger rig the 7mm bore is light years ahead of the smaller stuff. The 270 would be better but it is still hamstrung by bullet selection, if your build doesn't like the 170EOL WHAT NOW?
Recoil? BRAKE!
Both of your smaller choices are NEAT rounds but practically, a 7mm will walk away from them in nearly every category especially in killing power.

Then why does anyone shoot anything other than a 338?

 

[ohiohunter]

I like the 7mm too, tho the sherman is a tank I'm more partial to shorter cases. I'd consider a straight 284 win or 284 shehane, especially b/c you suggest you'd like to do some paper punching. You shouldn't have any issues mag feeding seated long compared to the longer case where you will have problems.

I have a 280 savage and cannot mag feed my 180's seated long, I wish wish someone would've talked me into the 284 when I built that.

 

[elkaholic]

If you run the numbers on the 6.5 thru 300 in the Sherman, for example, you may be surprised at the overall ballistics at 1000 yards. Yes, the 280 and 300 will have more foot lbs. of energy than the 6.5 but ft. pounds is not the real killer; tissue damage is. There is a trade off with bullet drop and retained velocity which expands the bullet to cause tissue damage. Not saying one is better or worse, but it is interesting to run all the numbers before you make a decision, and it depends largely on what you are hunting, and what paper punching game you are in. Then there is recoil, etc. I will say this, a 6.5 bullet with the proper construction and exiting the muzzle at 3200' will do a lot of damage at even 1000 yards........Rich

 

[toddc]

Then why does anyone shoot anything other than a 338?

I don't. I have moved around the bore selection for many years and always end up back at the 338.
I would guess recoil and portability would be why most don't, personally I hunt from a truck so I'm a 338 guy.
The OP could consider a 338-280AI or a 338-06AI running 250s.
If the 375 gets a little better bullet selection I will head that way.

 

[geocodyrgia]

ToddC, you've summed up my quandary and general thoughts perfectly.

I like the idea of the 6.5-06 but it seems to overlap a lot with my 25-06 (although there's a good chance the 25-06 becomes a 6.5-06 when the barrels gone sometime down the road). Right now I guess I consider the Ruger tang safety 25-06 (inherited feom wifes grandfather) my "primary" hunting gun with 120 Game Kings moving somewhere near 3200 fps for use on deer and hogs. That allows this project to concentrate a bit more on fun/range

And you're dead on with my fears about the venerable 270. I love the round and will gladly pick up or inherit one, but given the chance to build, it's hard to go that route with the lack of heavy bullet options. Even finding 8-twist barrels in 277 was a bit of a limiting factor. They're out there but you had to look.

OhioHunter, I've also looked quite a bit at doing this based on the 284 Shehane as you mentioned. I'm interested to hear your experiences with the heavy 7mm bullets not fitting a Savage internal mag with an '06 case. It was something id thought about but didn't think would be a problem, but I'm man enough to admit I could easily be wrong. Your experience is greatly appreciated.

Rich, if I remember correctly the first Sherman cartridge was the 6.5, correct? I'm very interested to hear some of your thoughts for that backstory as I think it would be very relevant here. I'm guessing a good bit has to do with your comment below. Particularly as I'm trying to move the heaviest bullets I can with an '06 case at reasonable speed, your practical experiences with building the Sherman rounds and the thoughts youve come away with from the numbers you've run would be hugely appreciated!

 

[ohiohunter]

You will have to seat the bullet base considerably deeper than the neck shoulder junction. Basically a situation where load development starts at mag length with considerable jump.

My 280 was my ignorant attempt at an fclass/hunting rig, my single shot fclass loads would never fit the mag. Sending that many rounds down range out of a sub 10lb gun was not fun.