Some thoughts on spine shots or DRT

[Deleted member 103481]

There is no pain so there can be no agony if the spine is severed.

If she was wailing it was simply out of not understanding what happened.

Just to clarify.

You are saying that there can be no pain when a mammal experience sever spinal cord trauma?

 

[Pdvdh]

I completely agree! I've been running guided hunts(www.brushcountryhunts.com) in South Texas for over 30 years, harvesting 90-120 whitetail bucks most years, not including does and hogs and with guided hunters, we ALWAYS try for a broadside shoulder shot taking out both shoulders...."the running gear"! If they don't go down quick, they can be extremely hard to find in the thick South Texas Brush before the coyotes get them! As WildRose said, I'd rather lose a little meat than not be able to find the animal or have the coyotes get to him first. My hunters come from all over the country and pay a lot of money for these hunts, so we eliminate a lot of problems by taking the shoulder shot...shots on these hunts are generally not long range, so shot placement can be precise!

That's another way to kill game, and it could be easier for the guides.
You must not accept archery hunters? Otherwise you'll have little choice than to accept rib-shot game. Of course, you'll have to walk a short distance to recover the animal most of the time.

 

[stx]

That's another way to kill game, and it could be easier for the guides.
You must not accept archery hunters? Otherwise you'll have little choice than to accept rib-shot game. Of course, you'll have to walk a short distance to recover the animal most of the time.

Yes, we do have archery hunters and of course the behind the shoulder shot is the best aim point for them and broad heads do a lot of damage and the tracking job is usually not far with a well placed arrow.....we've already taken nearly a dozen this year during the early archery season.....although we had to call the dogs in for tracking on 3 poor shots and those deer were killed by the dog handler after the dogs bayed the bucks. The problem we've had and I learned many, many years ago is that if a bullet splits the ribs which is highly likely since there's just as much space between the ribs as rib bone, then the bullet just pencils through the lungs, hopefully hitting a rib on the way out to leave a decent blood trail.....if not, it can make for a long day or night.....especially if the man we use with the dogs can't get to us right away(he stays pretty busy). With no blood or even very little blood, it makes for very difficult tracking in the Extremely thick brush......then you throw in fields of knee to waste high buffel grass, it gets even more difficult. Most deer that have been lost have of course been to poor shots but we've recovered more bucks than I could possibly remember days after they were shot only to find the ribs were split and there was no bullet expansion going in.......that's only when the coyotes leave us enough to determine. No, there's Definitely not an easier way for my guides than taking out the Running Gear! Attached are a few pics of bow kills this season.

 

[Pdvdh]

Those are some nice bucks. You've got some quality deer there.
If a bullet doesn't expand, then we're placed in a very compromised situation for game recovery.
I've had that happen twice, and seen it one other time with a hunting buddy. Of course we eventually collected both dall sheep and the black bear. Otherwise I couldn't have confirmed the bullets never expanded.
Non-expanding hunting bullets that were designed, and supposed, to expand are the best way to ruin a hunt I personally know of. All the planning, preparation, and execution can be for naught. Nothing is despised so fiercely by me, than to have done everything properly, and then have a hunting bullet fail to expand.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

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Yes, we do have archery hunters and of course the behind the shoulder shot is the best aim point for them and broad heads do a lot of damage and the tracking job is usually not far with a well placed arrow.....we've already taken nearly a dozen this year during the early archery season.....although we had to call the dogs in for tracking on 3 poor shots and those deer were killed by the dog handler after the dogs bayed the bucks. The problem we've had and I learned many, many years ago is that if a bullet splits the ribs which is highly likely since there's just as much space between the ribs as rib bone, then the bullet just pencils through the lungs, hopefully hitting a rib on the way out to leave a decent blood trail.....if not, it can make for a long day or night.....especially if the man we use with the dogs can't get to us right away(he stays pretty busy). With no blood or even very little blood, it makes for very difficult tracking in the Extremely thick brush......then you throw in fields of knee to waste high buffel grass, it gets even more difficult. Most deer that have been lost have of course been to poor shots but we've recovered more bucks than I could possibly remember days after they were shot only to find the ribs were split and there was no bullet expansion going in.......that's only when the coyotes leave us enough to determine. No, there's Definitely not an easier way for my guides than taking out the Running Gear! Attached are a few pics of bow kills this season.

I would consider that to be bullet failure. I would start compiling a list of bullets and their performance. Then inform your clients of the bullets that you prefer not be used on your hunts and likewise let them know the bullets that you do prefer.

In defense of the unmentioned bullets that did not work. We have learned in our testing that a marginally stable bullet has a much higher likelihood of failing to deform properly. There is a chance that they were not faulty bullets but were just not running with enough rpm's. Most manufactures are fully willing to market marginally stable hunting bullets. Marginally stable will often shoot very accurately but increases the chance of poor terminal performance. I used to hunt with marginal stability because the bullets were very accurate. Saw some questionable performance on game and chalked it up poor bullet quality. After a lot of impact testing our bullets I will never hunt with a bullet that shows less than 1.5sg calculated at sea level again.

Steve

 

[Will Mathieson]

Hunting deer I've had 3 occasions where the shotgun slug hit the spine. In each case the deer was very dead. Deer when killed by wolves do not feel pain as their body has a mechanism that prevents them feeling pain. I've seen night vision cameras where deer were killed by wolves and the deer do not act as if in pain.

 

[stx]

I would consider that to be bullet failure. I would start compiling a list of bullets and their performance. Then inform your clients of the bullets that you prefer not be used on your hunts and likewise let them know the bullets that you do prefer.

In defense of the unmentioned bullets that did not work. We have learned in our testing that a marginally stable bullet has a much higher likelihood of failing to deform properly. There is a chance that they were not faulty bullets but were just not running with enough rpm's. Most manufactures are fully willing to market marginally stable hunting bullets. Marginally stable will often shoot very accurately but increases the chance of poor terminal performance. I used to hunt with marginal stability because the bullets were very accurate. Saw some questionable performance on game and chalked it up poor bullet quality. After a lot of impact testing our bullets I will never hunt with a bullet that shows less than 1.5sg calculated at sea level again.

Steve

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot to say about the bullets some of my hunters use. You know the story..."Ive used these bullets for years and never had a problem".....right up until the bullet fails them! All I can do is recommend bullets to them and hope they take my advice....those that have hunted with me for years have taken my advice and are mostly using Barnes, Berger, or Accubonds....I've yet to see a Berger fail with a shoulder or behind the shoulder lung shot. I'm also a firm believer in all the speed I can get out of a load without sacrificing accuracy.....especially with Barnes....the faster they fly, the better they seem to work. But once again, most of my hunters don't reload and they're at the mercy of the ammunition they buy....and a some of that ammo doesn't expand well going through rib meat when it doesn't touch bone!
Most of my personal loads are Berger VLDs but I'm still using Barnes LRXs & TTSXs in a few loads. With all the good I've read about your bullets, Steve, I plan to give them a try in the near future. I know you're making an Excellent Bullet! At 65 years of age and reloading since I was 12, Ive loaded most premium bullets over the years but "This Old Dog" isn't too old to learn and I look forward to trying your bullets in several cartridges!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Good comments guys. Keep in mind my only point was to recognize a spine shot and follow up if needed. I dont care where you shoot them so long as they are dead

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Hunting deer I've had 3 occasions where the shotgun slug hit the spine. In each case the deer was very dead. Deer when killed by wolves do not feel pain as their body has a mechanism that prevents them feeling pain. I've seen night vision cameras where deer were killed by wolves and the deer do not act as if in pain.

I think you are looking at the animal and expecting human reaction. It hurts and there is no way anyone is going to convince me any different. If someone wants to make themselves feel better about killing animals by convincing themselves that they do not feel pain, whatever you gotta do. They feel pain no differently than we do.

Steve

 

[Pdvdh]

Pain allows animals to learn, and survive. If they didn't feel pain, they'd all sleep in our campfires to stay warm at night.

 

[Pdvdh]

Good comments guys. Keep in mind my only point was to recognize a spine shot and follow up if needed. I dont care where you shoot them so long as they are dead

Spine shots increase or decrease in frequency depending on aiming point. But dead is, of course, dead.
Yet there are a thousand ways to end up there.
No regulations require us to aim, or hit them, in any specific location. We are all free to select our aim points, and the consequences of them. And I'm most thankful for that.

 

[86alaskan]

good points STX, that last picture shows why the dogs were needed. unless i saw it wrong, looks like that guy ran it right through the guts. From a guides perspective, I can absolutely see why you'd want to dump the animal right there, no matter what. How many of those clients even leave with all the meat from the animal? or do they just donate so they can get the trophy?

 

[Lionheart]

One good point brought up about when a spine shot is required is when for several possible reasons you need the animal to drop in its tracks and not run as most will do with a heart/lung shot.
I had this very situation when looking down on a Muley buck that was bedded down right on the edge of the Missouri River.
He had a doe with him and if he was hit anywhere but spine he could easily fall 150 feet into river and be gone.
I was a couple of hundred feet above him with a nice rest and no wind...exactly 250 yards.
My rifle was sighted in at 250 and I knew I could put the bullet exactly where I wanted it.
I put the crosshairs right where his neck and shoulders met.
At the shot the doe ran off.
Buck never knew what hit him.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

Hunting deer I've had 3 occasions where the shotgun slug hit the spine. In each case the deer was very dead. Deer when killed by wolves do not feel pain as their body has a mechanism that prevents them feeling pain. I've seen night vision cameras where deer were killed by wolves and the deer do not act as if in pain.

1. That's not proof they don't feel pain

2. I've seen and heard the opposite. In person, not on a camera.