Russian Military Laser rangefinder

Discussion in 'Guns For Sale' started by Darryl Cassel, Jan 12, 2002.

  1. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    If you want a Rangefinder that will give you accurate repeatable readings in ANY weather condition from 140 meters to 20,000 meters (12 Miles) within a plus or minus of 5 meters, this is the one.

    Anyone who has bought them think they are the best thing since sliced bread.


    Darryl Cassel
    814-546-2674 PA.

    [ 10-01-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  2. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    613
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Tried looking for the picture but not luck.
    What do they look like and how much do they weight?
     
  3. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

    Messages:
    4,810
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2007
    Warning on Foreign Laser RangeFinders!!

    Everyone needs to understand that these are Russian military lasers that are either normally a FDA class IIIa or IIIb laser device, which means that they definitely are "not eye safe" and can permanently damage someones eye if they lase a person on purpose or by accident. The laser will reflect off any reflective surface such as glossy paint, glass, windows, and mirrors etc and continue on to its NOHD or Nominimal Occular Hazard Distance could be easily in excess of its ranging distance of 20 KM or 12 miles up, down, sideways etc. It is only terminated by going into the ground or a non-reflective object. The cheaper bushnell, nikon lasers sold in US are class I and "eye safe". If you read the package and instructions you will find that information.

    Class III lasers are not normally sold commercially to the public, so if you use or buy one understand the problems and liability of doing that.

    Any laser sold in the US must comply with Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, subchapter J, part 1040.10 and 1040.11. US military lasers have a specific exemption given due to their stringent testing and applicable military rules on use and training. Any foreign laser does not have this exemption and must meet FDA rules (FDA Exemption No. 76-EL-01DOD). The military exemption requires the mftrs to meet all requirements of 21 CFR 1040 if all all possible and then only if it meets national security requirements. The military handbook on lasers is MIL-HDBK-828 issues the military rules. You can find this on military websites.

    The military has very stringent rules on exactly what type ranges they can be used on. the range must be swept prior to use for these reflective objects. Plus everyone is required to wear ANSI approved Laser protective eyewear. Even then we have had too many "accidents" involving laser rangefinders and designators.

    So buy, sell and use these items at your own risk with the encompassing legal and financial peril. Not to stop anyone from using or whatever, but you need to understand you using an item that probably is not legal unless it has gone through the FDA approval process and definitely is not "eyesafe". Do it with a full understanding of the legal implications.

    By now you know that Laser Safety is one of my jobs as a miltary base Safety Director.
     
  4. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    These units are bought and sold with the full understanding of the non eyesafe conditons.

    NEVER has there been a problem with the civilian sector with them to date, only in wartime.

    I appreciate your information and always inform anyone to the laser status.

    The commercial units just DON'T do the job for us as longrange hunters/shooters. You certainly get spoiled by them (the military lasers) too.

    Just like a rifle, you use them with caution and safety in mind.

    Darryl Cassel

    PS---Bounty Hunter, Are you in the USA or Canada?

    [ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  5. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Bounty Hunter

    I have spoke to my lawyer and since I am not an exporter or importer of a unit it is classified as nothing more then an item such as a rifle.

    If I sell you a rifle and you kill someone with it accidently or wound yourself, do you think you will win a case against me?

    If I sell you a used automobile and you run over someone and kill them am I responsible?
    Only if I didn't disclose a major problem with the auto do you have a chance in court.

    You can sue anyone for anything but, winning the case is a different story.

    They are not eyesafe and this is in the disclosure. I use them and find they are extremely portable and accurate. I also had the Barr and Strouds and Wilds for years and still do. My choice would be the Russian laser or the American Litton military units any day.

    DC
     
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

    Messages:
    4,810
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2007
    Darryl,

    Just because you are not the importer or exporter does not mean it is exempt from the law. That is like saying "I did not import or export this machine gun" therefore it is legal to sell. Absolutely no difference. The law does not say anything about "If you can sneak it in it is legal to sell and exempt from our standards". Any lawyer stupid enough to make that argument in court will probably get you 5 to 10.

    Think I would talk to another lawyer.

    If you sold rifle that was not legally manufactured to this countries standards and existing laws and you sold it no matter how you got it, yes you are liable. I think that they are doing that now in ref to illegal gun sales with the Gun Contol Act of 68. If you sold a rifle to a mentally retarded person so bad that it was obvious that and they did not understand what they had, how to safely use it, yes you could be sued and you would probably lose.

    Very few if any of the general public is trained on class 111 lasers. They are buying something that they do not understand the safety rules and how dangerous it is, just like the mental retard. They assume because it is sold, that it is safe just like the material defect in the car. In your analogy about the defective car, that is exactly the defect that can bite you. You are selling an item that is dangerous and has many very specific rules and safety precautions for use, not just one vague warning.

    ARE YOU PROVIDING THE RULES AND SAFETY PRECAUTIONS FOR USE OF THAT LASER?

    A laser is much more than pushing a button and getting a reading. Just like a rifle is more than pulling a trigger. Only in this case there is not a local NRA laser safety course for them to take.

    If your lawyer is so sure, have him write a letter to the FDA, quoting the CFR reference I listed, giving the exact model etc and request that they issue an opinion letter that the imported russian class III lasers are legal and ok for for sale in the US and meets their requirements. If it is legal they will do that. That way you are covered and so is the buyer. If not better hope he is real good in court.

    Bounty Hunter
     
  7. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    When I have a recording of anyone that asks me about the rangefinders and I state to them that they are not eyesafe and do not do this or that and any other unsafe practice with it and I also state that I am not responsible for the use or mis use of such item and they agree, then I am free of any legal action.

    I have any and all emails to that effect from anyone I have talked to about them.

    I have several friends who have 2 or 3 sets of the lasers and sell them from time to time to LR hunters.

    Is your concern for them as well as me or do you have other motives?

    Your information concerning the laser status, is news to me. I know of two companies in the USA selling them right now for $10,000.00 each. That company is in Ohio

    I have only checked on the eyesafe situation I mentioned earlier.

    Everyone is informed of that situation if they buy one from me and also what NOT to do with them.

    Possibly this issue has been beat to death? I'll check with my legal advisor.

    DC

    [ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  8. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    Bountyhunter...

    Many of us have military lasers...
    Darrel has Ruskie units, I have the AN/GVS-5... we are as careful with them as we would be with a high powered rifle.

    The art of longrange shooting requires far more skills than 200 yd deer hunting with a 30-30...
    ... same with longrange lasers. Anyone that lays out $3000 to $5000 for a laser, does NOT use it recklessly, anymore than someone that has a 1,500 yard rifle, toss lead bullets around carelessly.

    So please lighten up, and don't lecture to the choir... we know what we are doing... far better than the 18 year old grunts in the military with a 2 weeks training.

    CatShooter.

    [ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: CatShooter ]
     
  9. FatBoy...

    FatBoy... Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    284
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2002
    Hey now,,, 18 year old "Grunts" don't get lasers.... Only Gun bunnies and FO's get cool shtuff like that... We were lucky if we got Steiners with a reticle....

    They told us,, if we can see it, and effectively engage it,,, fire it up. If not,, call for arty. [​IMG]

    FatBoy...
     
  10. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

    Messages:
    4,810
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2007
    Like I said, buy, use and sell these items at your own legal risk.

    Strongly advise you to read the CFR and write the FDA for a letter opinion on legality if you truly believe there is no problem. If you get one, your home free. If not expect a visit. Personally, would love to have a legal one, but will not risk it with the Russian one.

    Your all big boys, just do not go into something not knowing the facts and cry later "I did not know".

    End of discussion on this subject!
     
  11. Nodak7mm

    Nodak7mm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    181
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Okay, gotta stray into this one (even though I am out of my league with those particular CFR's).

    Alright, considering that the sale of this laser "may" not meet 21 CFR 1040.10 & 11;

    #1 What reg speaks to the possesion or use of such a unit? Does it even address possesion by a private citizen and if so...
    #2 Which agency/administration is granted regulatory oversite of such sales/possesions?
    #3 What section of USC 49 applies the legal authority to enforce such regulatory standards? As applied to a private citizen?

    I am not doubting Bounty Hunters knowledge of 21 CFR's, I believe he is knowledgable and I am not questioning his knowledge, just the CFR's.. CFR's are deep do-do and open for interpration....

    For fun I am just questioning the relevence & legal authority of those particular CFR's towards possesion by a private citizen. I will make a brazen guesstimate that those regs are written towards the mfg of, and sale thereof by the mfgs, not to the private possesion or exchange by private citizens.. I for one would love to read the preamble to those particular CFR's. Anyhow, just curious..

    FWIW; I don't belive for 1 second, that the sale/poessesion of one of these babies is illegal. Secondly, common sense previals with its usage as lawn mowers are dangerous in the same respect. Lastly, I wish I could afford one...

    Nodak7mm [​IMG]

    P.S. Daryl, are you sure your not a Super-Top-Secret-Agent? [​IMG] Wait, your an international arms dealer, retired. Yeah thats it. It would explain why you got so much awesome toys, its all clear now.... Now I can't get that dang Johnny Rivers song outta my head, "Secret Agent Man"....

    [ 09-17-2002: Message edited by: Nodak7mm ]
    [​IMG]

    [ 09-17-2002: Message edited by: Nodak7mm ]
     
  12. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    For added information here.

    Brunco corp imported 100s of these lasers into the US at the end of the cold war period.
    They sold all of them and they have been in the hands of the civilian population for years.
    The reason they no longer sell them was their supply began to dry up and another company in Canada got into the act. That company is now selling them in the USA for $10,000.00 retail and $6,000.00 wholesale.

    If this was such a concern to the national securety, they would not have been allowed to sell them at all here in the States to begin with.
    I have friends in Montana and several western States and throughout the entire nation that own these units and did before I had one.

    With the amount of them out there, it seems like the safety issue is not valid. Everyone who owns one understands they are not eye safe and are not a toy.

    For the longrange hunter, they can't be beat by ANY comercial unit available.
    When someone invests the amount of money these cost that person will certainly be a safe and responsible user.

    I warn everyone to the non-eye safe conditions, the reflective nature of the unit and also state that I am not responsible for the use or mis-use of the units in any way.

    My friends and I use these with respect and most people may not believe just how many of these units are in the country at the present time.

    The sale of these units in the USA has been going on for years and will continue as long as more are found.

    Darryl Cassel

    [ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  13. Nicholas

    Nicholas Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    469
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2001
    Don't forget about all the building surveyors and construction companies that use Lasers everyday at work.

    Just what we need, construction workers pissing off the roof and blinding the pedestrians that walk by. LMAO

    I don't mean any offence to construction workers, I am referring to the ones I know. LOL

    Oh yeah, Coal Miners use non-eyesafe lasers to, and ceiling tile workers, etc, etc...

    Oh wait a minute ceiling tile lasers are eyesafe, I guess they don't need a class III firearms license to buy them. [​IMG]

    [ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: sr90 ]
     
  14. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

    Messages:
    4,810
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2007
    Daryl,

    Telling someone that they are not eyesafe is great, however that is only one of many possible problems with class III lasers and do they understand what that really means? How far, what is the NHOD, what is the NHOD-A, what the heck is a NHOD, what protective eyewear is required, how can you safely range something, what to look for in dangerous reflective surfaces etc?

    Who certified that they meet the basic requirements of the CFR in order to be sold in the US? If they have a FDA certification letter with them, then no problem.

    You are dealing with a controlled item that has come in under the guise of surplus. Because it is surplus and because it has never been a problem before does not eliminate it from being one. Or does that make it legal? We have numerous surplus machine guns that break that argument covered by the exact same CFR, albiet different sections.

    Has your lawyer has prepared a waiver of liability statement to go along with each of them? Has he explained your liability in selling, buying or using these items?

    What has your insurance agent said about your insurance policy covering you selling class III lasers? Are you covered if someone lases someone else and you are sued also?

    FACT: Anyone can sell or buy anything until you are caught! Only then is it a problem.

    So buy and sell class III lasers at your own risk.

    the sportmsman guide at www.sportsmansguide.com has a canadian mftr 2000 yard class 1 laser coming in 7 Oct for $279.00, item number GXD2-65777. They do not have the spec sheet in yet and expect it with the first shipments. I am sure it is not as accurate or dangerous as the military models and as expensive. I do not know if it will be accurate enough until I read the spec sheet, but it will be legal.

    The Wilde coincidental range finders are $500-600 and have been used for years successfully and are as accurate.

    Take your choice and chances, whatever your pocketbook can pay and dish out if someone is caught in violation. Lawyers love that.

    Bounty Hunter