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Resizing die-Honing
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Rich Coyle
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I would recommend a good set of bushing dies.
They will do what you want without messing with the chamber.
The bushing die eliminates the need for the expander ball and increases the brass life by reducing the neck working/sizing by 50%.
The other advantage is when you have to change brands of brass, a $10.00 bushing is all you need to get the neck the same size as before.
J E CUSTOM
They will do what you want without messing with the chamber.
The bushing die eliminates the need for the expander ball and increases the brass life by reducing the neck working/sizing by 50%.
The other advantage is when you have to change brands of brass, a $10.00 bushing is all you need to get the neck the same size as before.
J E CUSTOM
I thought I would have to go that route, but figured I could get by with just honing out a fl die for this particular rifle, and not have to buy a bushing die.
Adikted
Well-Known Member
I can't imagine anyone would alter a die cheaper than what a new die costs, aside from that your going to create more problems for yourself down the road
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
In the "Old" days we ground and buffed the expander ball in order to get the best neck fit, (It could be turned true for a more concentric shape. But then you were stuck with that Diameter and if your new brass was thinner/thicker you ether had to buy a new expander or a new sizing die.
This was just as expensive or more than the bushing, I have and use both types of dies where I need them. The main advantage with the bushing dies is brass life, especially if you shoot and load a lot. The average hunter doesn't need the bushing dies because of the number of firings yearly.
With todays accuracy standards, every part of precision loading is important. Also honing out the die neck can be tricky with the risk of getting it off center because dies are normally heat treated and to hard to bore on a lathe.
J E CUSTOM
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. The bushing floats inside the die and can move from side to side and even tilt. And when reducing the neck diameter .004 or more it will induce neck runout. Meaning with a standard SAAMI chamber and larger neck diameter a bush die "may" not be the best choice. And this is why the Lee collet die is used by many shooters, not because the die is cheaper, but because this die produces less neck runout.
If you remove the expander from a full length die and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. But if the expander is locked down off center, or if the case neck has unequal neck thickness this can cause case neck runout.
The dies expander is not the end of the world as many reloaders think. If the expander spindle is locked down straight and the "inside" of the case neck is lubed this lessons the friction and stress on the case neck. Also at the Whidden website they sell expander kits with 5 expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter to control neck tension.
Bottom line I get the least amount of neck runout with Forster full length benchrest dies and the most neck runout with bushing dies with off the shelf factory rifles with SAAMI chambers. I personally think too much of what benchrest shooters do with their custom rifles carries down to the average reloader and is not needed.
Read the link below and pay attention to the last paragraph and its heading, "Do Nothing".
Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html
If you remove the expander from a full length die and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. But if the expander is locked down off center, or if the case neck has unequal neck thickness this can cause case neck runout.
The dies expander is not the end of the world as many reloaders think. If the expander spindle is locked down straight and the "inside" of the case neck is lubed this lessons the friction and stress on the case neck. Also at the Whidden website they sell expander kits with 5 expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter to control neck tension.
Bottom line I get the least amount of neck runout with Forster full length benchrest dies and the most neck runout with bushing dies with off the shelf factory rifles with SAAMI chambers. I personally think too much of what benchrest shooters do with their custom rifles carries down to the average reloader and is not needed.
Read the link below and pay attention to the last paragraph and its heading, "Do Nothing".
Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html
Last edited:
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Well made custom dies are always better than the after market dies because they are made to fit your chamber using fire formed cases.
I guess I have been lucky because I have never bought a set of Quality bushing that I didn't have to tap in the dies (They were a close fit and would not drop in. To remove them I normally just unscrew the bushing retainer and run a case through the die pushing the bushing out.
If I ever get one that just drops in I will knurl Or shim the bushing to fit.
Thanks for the heads up, I will be more diligent in checking for this so I don't have to deal with a lose bushing. I have and use a concentric tool for checking load concentricity and have not encountered this problem yet. Some dies will except other manufactures bushings but I don't mix brands for this reason.
I have made my own dies for some of my wildcats and tried both types (Bushing or non bushing) and find that both load very concentric ammo and find that with todays brass, Bushing dies are easier to get correct neck tension. PS: I turn all of my brass before sizing or fire forming so I start with very concentric brass and don't load and shoot non prepped brass and risk offsetting the neck.
Just My method
J E CUSTOM
I guess I have been lucky because I have never bought a set of Quality bushing that I didn't have to tap in the dies (They were a close fit and would not drop in. To remove them I normally just unscrew the bushing retainer and run a case through the die pushing the bushing out.
If I ever get one that just drops in I will knurl Or shim the bushing to fit.
Thanks for the heads up, I will be more diligent in checking for this so I don't have to deal with a lose bushing. I have and use a concentric tool for checking load concentricity and have not encountered this problem yet. Some dies will except other manufactures bushings but I don't mix brands for this reason.
I have made my own dies for some of my wildcats and tried both types (Bushing or non bushing) and find that both load very concentric ammo and find that with todays brass, Bushing dies are easier to get correct neck tension. PS: I turn all of my brass before sizing or fire forming so I start with very concentric brass and don't load and shoot non prepped brass and risk offsetting the neck.
Just My method
J E CUSTOM
Last edited:
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
The Forster full length benchrest die has a high mounted floating expander. And the expander enters the case neck while it is held and centered in the neck of the die. Meaning the Forster full length dies can not pull your case necks off center. And if you measure case neck runout after sizing it will be equal to the neck thickness variations. And if you neck turn your cases the neck runout will be .001 or less.
I'm not claiming to be a expert but after I retired I bought more gauges than I had in the first 40 years of reloading. And my biggest regret is not try the Forster dies much earlier. It is Forster's expander and spindle assembly design that makes straight concentric case necks. And I have installed them on all my older RCBS dies and Redding dies.
Below the Forster benchrest sizing and seating dies in my opinion are the best buy for the money. And designed to make very concentric ammunition.
Below a RCBS .223 expander on the left raised as high as it will move. And on the right a Forster expander and spindle assembly that fits RCBS dies.
Below a modified Forster expander and spindle assembly fitted to a .243 Redding full length die. I can see why some people do not like expanders, look at how much longer the Redding standard expander is and the increased drag inside the case neck. And like many type expanders it can be locked down off center and induce neck runout. The modified Forster expander has a rubber o-ring under the Redding lock ring and allows the expander to float and self center.
I'm not claiming to be a expert but after I retired I bought more gauges than I had in the first 40 years of reloading. And my biggest regret is not try the Forster dies much earlier. It is Forster's expander and spindle assembly design that makes straight concentric case necks. And I have installed them on all my older RCBS dies and Redding dies.
Below the Forster benchrest sizing and seating dies in my opinion are the best buy for the money. And designed to make very concentric ammunition.
Below a RCBS .223 expander on the left raised as high as it will move. And on the right a Forster expander and spindle assembly that fits RCBS dies.
Below a modified Forster expander and spindle assembly fitted to a .243 Redding full length die. I can see why some people do not like expanders, look at how much longer the Redding standard expander is and the increased drag inside the case neck. And like many type expanders it can be locked down off center and induce neck runout. The modified Forster expander has a rubber o-ring under the Redding lock ring and allows the expander to float and self center.
