Reloading Techniques

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by bailey1474, Feb 28, 2006.

  1. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,922
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    A friend of mine has recently purchased a Remington VLS in 6mm Rem. He plans to take the rifle to the VHA Jamboree and shoot it in all the classes. The first thing he did w/this thing is take it to a reputable gunsmith and have the thing completely gone over(recrowned, bedded, etc.). If it was legal for the shoot, he had it done.

    He is now having some serious trouble getting the rifle to shoot. I don't think he's found a combo yet that will group under .75 MOA.

    After getting very frustrated, he called the smith and they told him to bring the rifle and some loaded ammo down and they would talk about it. From what I gather, they are trying to blame the rifles performance on his reloading. In my opinion this is total BS b/c this guy is maticulous. I've seen him shoot some unbelievable groups w/his Cooper. I know he is more than capable of reloading match quality ammo.

    They told him to get the most out this rifle, he needed to completely strip the bolt and set his die so the sized case offered just a smidgeon of resistance as it was chambered. They told him to do this everytime he sized the cases /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif!!!

    I know there was some other anal BR type stuff that they suggested but to be honest, I quit paying attention after he told me this.

    Is it just me or is this like feeding race horse feed to a mule? He is shooting a factory stick. I don't care what you do, the thing is only going to shoot so good. I had a VLS in .243 that basically shot one hole and I was just a begining reloader when I was loading for it.

    It seems to me that they should have told the guy quit wasting his time and money and move on. What do you guys think?
     
  2. ELZWizz68

    ELZWizz68 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    BJ,

    Agree with your comment on the racehorse and the mule... if the barrel is stock stick (which is what I understand), he is stuck with a so-so barrel. I have had (back in the early 90's) a Model 7, done the same way - factory stick, BR gunsmith, trued, lapped, etc. This was a rare bird - most groups out of its 18 1/2" pencil barrel shot not only .25 MOA, but mostly to same POI (why did I get rid of that.... oh yeah, hungry kids and a wife).

    I currently have a VLSF that goes .6 MOA, but that is probably all it will do. I have several friends that think .75 MOA is awesome, so I guess it is up to the person shooting it. Obviously to most of the members, this won't do. GOing to all that trouble to go from .75 to what, maybe .65? not worth it to me (IMHO).

    The reloading techiniques I am sure will make a big (to a BR guy) difference, but the effort expended is not. If you put a dollar figure to your time, and payed yourself for the saved extra effort, AND took your savings you would pay for the new barrel. But that doesn't help your friend out.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    Tell your friend to bite the bullet (I know bad pun), sell it to one of my friends (who will love him to death) and go get another one and hope to get lucky... don't know what else to say. Frustrating in the least bit I know.

    EZ
     
  3. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,032
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    I dont know, sounds kinda fishy to me. I am not the most experienced reloader out there, thats for sure, but a VLS in a rem 700 in 6mm should get something at least .5" Stock barrel or not. I think what he should have done, but this is totally my opinion only, was to shoot the rifle first with just a trigger job and bedding. If it shot great, then leave it at that. If it aint broke dont fix it kinda thing. Then if it didn't shoot up to his specs, then take it to the gunsmith and have it totally redone. But thats just me. What do I know, I dont have any custom barrels. I use all factory sticks, for now anyways.
     
  4. Meister

    Meister Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    222
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    It's possible that there is a small problem with the rifle. I will go out on a limb here and say that not all factory sticks are created equal.

    Another thing could be his choice of powder/primer/bullet isn't what this rifle likes. I say this from experience- My friend bought a rem 22-250 that refused to shoot worth a darn with 55g bullets. It was deadly accurate with anything lighter.

    Same friend and myself bought matching 10fp savages, ladder tested each individually and came up with similar curves but different charges for accuracy. I guess it could be a case of factory "VooDoo" of some kind.

    I can imagine everyone here has chased a rifle with no success one time or another. Mine was an M1A NM, never could get it to shoot sub moa with any consistancy. It's gone now!
     
  5. 41mag

    41mag Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    752
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    I think that '06 pretty much hit it on the head. The first thing he should have done was at least work up some sort of load, amd /or at least try out some factory fodder to see what it would do, to have a baseline. THat way he would at least have something to go on improvement wise.

    That said, there could also be something in a bind, or the screws not tightend properly. I would play with that theory as well. It's at least worth the time to investigate before scrapping the whole project.

    I have personally found little stuff like this on several folks rifles in the past. I used to load for quite a few folks, and in that I had their guns to do the development with. First rounds down the tube were always what they had been shooting, or factory in the closest bullet to what they wanted. There were several that had the action in a bind or the barrel was rubbing just a tad to one side or the other just in front of the chamber, or the screws were loose or overly tight. Just a simple inspection at the range, sometimes made a world of difference. These were for the most part all factory with nothing but the scope added.

    Maybe the recoil lug is putting it in some sort of a bind with the bedding or maybe if the bedding extends out beyond the action and under the barrel some, possibly that is throwing it out of harmonics. It only takes a little trial and error to eliminate things one by one. Some can even be checked with out firing a round.

    If I had dumped the cash into the thought of making it better, I would definately look for and eliminate as much as I could before tossing it aside.
     
  6. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    563
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2005
    Based on some of the things the "gunsmiths" have said...

    I would bet they didn't lap the lugs. This happens a lot.

    Does the rifle shoot light loads well, but begins to scatter shots as the charge increases? On a Rem 700, that usually means the lugs need lapping.

    This is an easy enough test: Have your friend mark the rear faces of each of the bolt lugs with a black Sharpie and then have him chamber a fired case. Remove the case and bolt, and see if both areas of Sharpie marker are rubbed equally. One thing you'll often see is that only one lug is bearing.

    It would be interesting to know how this test turns out...

    Dan
     
  7. arthurj

    arthurj Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    460
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    I don't know where the problem lies but one thing I do know is that getting that perfect headspace will not cut his groups in half. You know bumping the shoulder correctly is important but it will not drastically improve groups. I think he may be asking too much from the factory stick. You never know, my factory rem 308 will shoot in the .3s consistently but my new rem 220 swift WILL NOT, I repeat WILL NOT, shoot under .75 moa!
     
  8. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    I've had really good luck with David Tubb's FinalFinish System in both 7mm and .308.

    The factory 7 RUM went from 1.125" to a solid .5". The 300 RUM went from 1" to .6".

    Just an Idea.
     
  9. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,922
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    [ QUOTE ]
    Another thing could be his choice of powder/primer/bullet isn't what this rifle likes. I say this from experience- My friend bought a rem 22-250 that refused to shoot worth a darn with 55g bullets. It was deadly accurate with anything lighter.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can't think of a bullet, powder or primer he hasn't tried!!
     
  10. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,922
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    [ QUOTE ]
    That said, there could also be something in a bind, or the screws not tightend properly. I would play with that theory as well. It's at least worth the time to investigate before scrapping the whole project.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    He's already tried these things. Still no good.
     
  11. coupalr

    coupalr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    218
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    My 6mm VLS shoots 70gr bullets under .5" but when I try anything heavier it shoots terrible. 87gr v-maxs shoot around .75" and with heavier bullets it shoots like mini 14.
     
  12. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,922
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    [ QUOTE ]
    My 6mm VLS shoots 70gr bullets under .5" but when I try anything heavier it shoots terrible. 87gr v-maxs shoot around .75" and with heavier bullets it shoots like mini 14.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think this is what his is doing as well. He bought it b/c of the 9 1/8 twist. He figured to shoot the 105 amax or 95 Berger.
     
  13. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    REMINGTON QUALITY=OXYMORON?
     
  14. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    563
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2005
    Have him at least check the bolt lug engagement with a marker. That very well could be the problem, and it would be a shame to bark up other trees if you're working against uneven lugs.

    Dan