Reloading problem with bullet coming out loose...worked fine last year, don't know what changed

[ronedog]

Hey guys, I could use some help with a problem that came up. I'm at a loss as to what is happening. In short, when I seat my bullets they are not tight anymore and I can push them in with my hand and twist them.

Here's the setup.
300wsm, wichester brass fire formed, lee breech lock press, lee neck sizer. IMR 4350 57.5gr, 185 Berger VLD Hunting bullet

Here's what I have done.
Last year I figured out my loads above. Gun shot great. I loaded 12 bullets last week and took my daughter out shooting to get ready for the hunt. Bullets shot great out to 500 yards. I thought I was good to go. Last night (night before opener) I went to load more bullets...preped the cases, etc. and seated the bullets. On the 3rd bullet I happened to notice it was loose. after checking, all the other bullets were loose too.

I did a bunch of reading and believe the issue is with the neck sizing stage. I reset up my die again by twisting it down to where the shell case touches the die, then I tested different brass and twisted it down some more. When I don't put any brass into the die and I pull the lever down I can see where the shell case presses in the lee collet about 1/16th of an inch or so and it gives me the impression the collet is doing its job and closing around the mandrel properly. I've inspected the inside of the mandrel/die and there is nothing fouling the process and its lubed properly. When I put in a fireformed brass shell and pull the lever the shell case comes to the bottom of the die, but I don't feel the collet closing and I can't see the bottom of the die push up the collet at all. I've put 25lb weight on the handle and tried it, I've pushed down on the handle, probably around 35 or 40 lbs and tried it, but my results are the same....which is when I seat the bullet I can still twist the bullet or push it in.

I know I can sand down the mandrel to change its diameter. One other forum guy says his .308 mandrel ha has shaved down to .3055 width. I measured my mandrel and it is at .3065

Logically, this would tell me I need to shave my mandrel down. But why this is really confusing me is why did my other bullets work last year? I have not done any reloading since then. Only thing is I moved my loading station from my garage into my basement. I loaded up 12 bullets last week and they seemed fine...shot fine at the range, but I really didn't pull the bullets to see if any were loose and when we shot nothing seemed wrong so I was extatic. I found 2 bullets from last year so I could test them by pushing in the bullet or twisting it with my hand and they don't budge. I don't crimp, so none of the bullets from last year were crimped, its only neck sized. The brass I'm using has been shot 3/4 times and I've only neck sized each time.

Is the brass the problem? Is the neck sizer the problem? Is it the mandrel? If the mandrel is the problem, why did it work on my bullets last year, do die material change (expand/contract) over time (I live in a desert with temps from 60 degrees in winter to 100 in summer? Is it possible that the mandrel or collet has changed shape over the year? After inspecting it, it still lubed and looks great to me. Lastly, I don't reload a lot, just for long range shooting my 300wsm. I've probably loaded less than 200 bullets in this setup, but was very happy last year and the first outing this yr...until last night.

Any help will be appreciated. Headed out hunting this afternoon with factory ammo...feeling bad for my 15 yr old daughter, she nailed it at 500 yards with my handloads and she's the one with the tag...but factory, I'm not sure about it, probably fine out to 200 yds, but many of our deer are at 400 yds.

thx

 

[NoFences]

If everything else in your die set up is correct, How many times have the cases been loaded? Have you ever annealed the cases? The brass might be getting some spring back from being hard. I can't imagine it springing back far enough to be that loose. I'm not sure if this could be the issue or not, but its worth exploring. Definitely a head scratcher.

 

[ronedog]

I have shot them about 3 or 4 times. I have never annealed them. Only neck sized. Thx

 

[Barrelnut]

Haven't used a Lee collet die. But do shoot a 300 WSM that I neck size with a Redding bushing die. I have noticed that Winchester necks are a lot thinner than say Norma brass necks. I actually have to use a bushing that is one size smaller when I size Winchester brass.

Maybe be a combination of the the thin neck material and the fact that it is getting work hardened some. Can you try a new piece of brass? Or maybe try some Norma or Nosler brass if possible.

Have you trimmed the necks recently?

 

[Buckskinner]

Something is odd there, I'd be surprised if they would need annealing if you are only neck sizing. I've had that happen on a couple rounds, but It was because the die was not set up properly. I use the following setup from J. Valentine for setup of my LCD's. You should not need any where near 25lbs of pressure.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49899-Lee-Collet-Die-Adjustment

I wonder if the die got damaged somehow. Although the cap is mad of aluminum and pops off if too much pressure has been applied. You're Lee press handle does not go over-center, so it is tougher to set up properly as above.

 

[Buckskinner]

I missed the Winchester brass, I would start there and get new brass! Nosler or better imo...

 

[NoFences]

This was taken from the link posted above.

"The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.

 

[ronedog]

Thanks for the replies and additional reading...i have not annealed it and dont have any new brass. I will try annealing the necks and see how that goes...iv never annealed befor and saw a youtube where a propane torch and water was used...any reason not to do it this way for my situation?

 

[Buckskinner]

I will pass on that one...

 

[Barrelnut]

...any reason not to do it this way for my situation?

I believe it will be fine and a great way to get started in annealing. I would just use one of the torch methods that uses a socket and a cordless drill to spin the brass in the flame. There's a guy called Ammosmith on Youtube that does some good vids on the process. This is the method I use today still and have had good results.

 

[ronedog]

thanks...ammosmith is the one I watched.

 

[WildRose]

I believe it will be fine and a great way to get started in annealing. I would just use one of the torch methods that uses a socket and a cordless drill to spin the brass in the flame. There's a guy called Ammosmith on Youtube that does some good vids on the process. This is the method I use today still and have had good results.

The old lee hand trimming base works great, Just insert it into a drill and run it slow. Cheap, reliable, superfast and so simple it's stupid.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/476992/lee-case-trimmer-cutter-and-lock-stud

 

[ronedog]

Ok, heres a quick update. I annealed 3 pieces of brass, just the neck shoulders area. I dipped it in water and dried everything off, then let it cool 3 minutes or so. I then seated a bullet. This time the bullet was much more difficult to twist and took me a fair amount of finger pressure to twist the bullet..so perhaps the collet is doing its job and now its the brass? However, I was still able to twist the bullet by hand and push it in..albeit I pushed hard. Should I anneal the brass longer (I held it in the flame about 3-4 seconds or so. Or should I anneal 1 piece of brass 2 or 3 times then seat the bullet? Should I have waited longer for the brass to cool down (it was cool to my touch through, when I seated the bullet)? Or is this bullet tight enough to be safe to shoot?

thx for the help.

 

[WildRose]

Ok, heres a quick update. I annealed 3 pieces of brass, just the neck shoulders area. I dipped it in water and dried everything off, then let it cool 3 minutes or so. I then seated a bullet. This time the bullet was much more difficult to twist and took me a fair amount of finger pressure to twist the bullet..so perhaps the collet is doing its job and now its the brass? However, I was still able to twist the bullet by hand and push it in..albeit I pushed hard. Should I anneal the brass longer (I held it in the flame about 3-4 seconds or so. Or should I anneal 1 piece of brass 2 or 3 times then seat the bullet? Should I have waited longer for the brass to cool down (it was cool to my touch through, when I seated the bullet)? Or is this bullet tight enough to be safe to shoot?

thx for the help.

No, over annealing brings with it a whole new set of problems.

Quenching is not necessary and somewhat counterproductive, the main purpose of using water at all is to ensure you aren't annealing too far below the shoulder. Factory annealed brass is sitting in a water bath when it is annealed.

To Quench or Not to Quench
Notice that there was no mention of quenching the brass. To anneal brass, all that is required is heat and time. Once you have allowed the structure of the brass to transform, it's done. You can cool it as slowly or as quickly as you like and it won't matter.

The myth that you need to quench brass comes from the requirement to do so when heat treating some kinds of steel. Those steels harden by a very different mechanism that has nothing to do with brass or work hardening at all.

Damon Cali is the creator of the Bison Ballistics website and a high power rifle shooter currently living in Nebraska.

http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

Try heating just to where it barely starts to show read and then let it air cool and see if that helps.