Redding type S neck sizing die question

[Firearrow]

I was wondering how many people run there bushing style neck sizer's without a expander ball. When ever I size my brass it makes my runout worse. Before I size it is usually .001-002. , then it's about .003-.004. Some gets a high as .006. Have tried rotating the brass and then running it through again. Doesn't seem to help. So I figured i would try sizing with out a ball. Just want to make sure it was safe to do.

Have not turned the necks yet, saving up some funds for it.

 

[Mikecr]

I don't pull an expander ball through necks, but instead expand in a separate operation with a Sinclair mandrel system.
SINCLAIR GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Sinclair Intl
SINCLAIR EXPANDER MANDREL - OVERSIZED | Sinclair Intl

Expansion before bullet seating is important and can reduce loaded runout over bad or no expansion.
It pushes neck thickness variance outward for straighter bullet seating.
It can establish very consistent neck tension, combined with the proper bushing size for necks.
It reduces bullet seating forces, which allows more consistent seating base to ogive.

Bullets should not be used as expanders(they aren't hard enough).

 

[jimbires]

Mike , how much do you down size the neck with the bushing ? thanks Jim

 

[Mikecr]

I downsize 2thou under cal (after springback), then expand to 1thou under (after springback).
You could just downsize to 1thou under after springback, but the springback continues over time to counter last action, which in this case would be reducing bullet grip.

 

[Firearrow]

Ok just so that I have the process correct. You don't run any expander ball. But instead just use the bushing. Then you set up the Expander mandrel and run the brass into it so that will seat with out having to use excessive force to get the bullet into the brass.

With this process what size bushing do you go with?. .001 or .002 larger than a loaded case neck?

Also, does this method work if you have turned the necks yet?

 

[Mikecr]

Your bushing could be 3thou under loaded neck diameter.
But this is affected by the fired neck diameter as left by your chamber. When bushing sizing exceeds 5thou things get trial & error.
So if you have a big ole sloppy chamber the math may not work out, and you might need less bushing downsizing than you thought..

 

[varmintH8R]

I have a type-S in 300WSM that I run an expander ball in with no measurable change in runout.

I also have a Type-S in 338LM where the expander always adds runout. I removed the expander, and voila- no more issues. If your brass is consistent, there is no reason not to try to use your existing set without the expander to see what results you get. Just make sure the bushing you choose isn't sizing too much (test with your removed expander - if it is just too tight to push it in you should be good).

I have several competition bushing dies as well, and they don't come with an expander. My 2C is try and see what you've got before moving on to an expander mandrel.

 

[Firearrow]

Pulled the expander and the brass that is good is .002 or less, middle of the road .002-.004, and then there is the .005-.006.

Finished fire forming the test of the new brass. Will see what happens. Crossing my fingers. RWS ain't cheap.

 

[MMERSS]

I don't pull an expander ball through necks, but instead expand in a separate operation with a Sinclair mandrel system.
SINCLAIR GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Sinclair Intl
SINCLAIR EXPANDER MANDREL - OVERSIZED | Sinclair Intl

Expansion before bullet seating is important and can reduce loaded runout over bad or no expansion.
It pushes neck thickness variance outward for straighter bullet seating.
It can establish very consistent neck tension, combined with the proper bushing size for necks.
It reduces bullet seating forces, which allows more consistent seating base to ogive.

Bullets should not be used as expanders(they aren't hard enough).

+1. This system works well, more cost but worth the results.

 

[Firearrow]

+1. This system works well, more cost but worth the results.

I read that the expander mandrel puts the opening .001 smaller than the bullet dia. Is this enough neck tension the hold the bullet? This is a LR hunting rifle.

 

[MMERSS]

I read that the expander mandrel puts the opening .001 smaller than the bullet dia. Is this enough neck tension the hold the bullet? This is a LR hunting rifle.

Usually yes. One test, push a loaded bullet against a piece of wood. If you can leave a dent in the wood and there is no movement the grip should be sufficient for hunting.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

With most brass, neck thickness is varaiable (Just measured some Rem 7saum @ .015 to .018). An expander mandrel is the ONLY way to go in my humblest opinion, for consistent neck tension as mike pointed out.

I turned 100pcs of that brass to see what the effect it will have vs another 100pc lot that has not been turned. I plan to run with the usual .002 under loaded size thru a bushing w/o expander ball. Then, size at -.002 then expander mandrel. Should be interesting.

To answer your question, I never use the expander ball in bushing dies, ever. The whole point for me, with "competition" dies is to eliminate run out, not put it right back in there.

cheers,


t

 

[boomtube]

"... but the springback continues over time to counter last action, which in this case would be reducing bullet grip"
using bushing sizers to get a precise 'neck tension' and you're finding some of it.

That's true. Bushings are only fair, at best, for making necks the same outside diameter each time because neck thicknesses and hardness vs. springback varies a bit each cycle. Then a bigger issue is that no matter if you turn the necks to a uniform thickness or not, the actual bullet grip will still vary because of individual case neck hardness variations. Even with exact case neck thickness and length dimensions it's quite easy to feel actual 'grip' differences during seating.

Nor is there any magic in expanders in or out of a sizer; no matter how straight the neck may be before seating we can't shoot it that way! Seating a bullet will do more neck expanding as it enters than a normal expander itself and that one glaring fact is overlooked in all of the expander/no expander sizing arguments I've ever seen. Bullets are going to run in leaning towards the weak side of the necks and there's little we can do to stop it. All of the threaded die seating stems I've seen - and that's quite a few - are much too loosely fitted inside the die for the common 'seat part way and rotate the case' suggestion to accomplish anything useful - once a bullet starts in tilted it tends to stay tilted.

Bottom line, bushing sizers were first made for the specal problems encountered by BR shooters with tight neck chambers that required neck thinning just to be able chamber a round; hardly any of the rest of us have that so we really don't need those dies. But the makers are quite happy to sell them to us!

If you want the most concentric ammo you can make for a SAAMI chamber, use a Lee collect neck die and a Forster BR or Redding Comp seater. Add a body die to be used along with the collet die when you want to do FL sizing. You will then be doing as well as can be done and it won't cost you a fortune for bushing dies giving little or no improvement.

IMHO.

 

[Derek M.]

I also anneal after each firing for the most part. I've had no problem with consistent, repeatable accuracy.