Redding bushing neck sizing die
- Thread starter 6pakzak
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
BTW I use lee decapper on lee handheld press, I file a v just above the decapping pin on the rod and now I don't hit the mouth of the case and can fly through them as I'm watching TV, also use Hornady shell holder cause it supports and holds the case straight.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that to make you abandon the caliber, it was more along the lines of I wouldn't drop the $190 for an Type S competition bushing neck die expecting to get any better results than I could get with an FL or body/neck combo and a mandrel for a standard 223 Rem. There are other calibers that would be less particular about the accuracy of loading than 223 Rem, pretty much anything in a 6mm or larger. The 223 just won't benefit from this level of loading in the same way as other, larger cases. This is always on my assumption that you're shooting some kind of factory 223 bolt action, not anything you've put a lot of effort into specifying details for. If that's wrong, different conversation path.
Anyways, onwards to TL;DR. 223 Rem, in it's factory form, comes with a lot of compromises. Originally a lengthened .222 Rem (and sharing the same 23* shoulder angle), they took away ~0.1" of neck length from the parent case and made it less than a caliber long (approx. .205"), then designed it to shoot around a similar practical maximum bullet weight of 60-65gn. Throating and barrel twist and a lot of other details are wrapped up in assumptions made when the cartridge was originally designed that don't necessarily carry forward to today.
Due to the smallness of the caliber the neck of a 223 Rem yields at a lower tension than a larger caliber. Combining a short neck and small caliber means that there's really only so much "grip" you can get a case neck to put on a bullet. A 223 Rem will be able to put less grip on a bullet than some larger and/or longer - for example the 338 Lapua Magnum - also a sub-caliber length neck at .327" but 51% increase in circumference relative to bullet size so it will not yield until until there's more interference fit between the bullet and case. Once the neck yields, the bullet is expanding the neck and not being gripped any harder. When it comes to neck length, look at a 6mm Rem and a 243 Win side by side and you can see the 6mm Rem has a significantly longer neck - meaning (everything else being constant) it will be able to grip a bullet harder than a 243 WIN before the brass yields because of the increased amount of bearing surface making contact with the neck. The Type S die works by sizing less than the entire neck, so if there's not much there to start with you don't have a large window of adjustments. There also isn't a lot of stress in a .224 caliber case to hold to bullet to start with, and by sizing less than all the neck you're only reducing what there was to start with. You aren't starting with a lot and working down, you're starting with a little and working down. A lot less to work with.
So the 223 Rem has a much narrower tuning window for neck tension (interference fit/hoop stress/ other terms describing the case gripping the bullet) than something that is a larger caliber and/or has a longer neck. It's the short-and-small end of the spectrum, so it's not that you can't tune it, it'll just be done done on a smaller set of specs in a more limited range, meaning I'd expect it to have an overall smaller impact on my on-target results and the changes to be useful in narrower, more precise ranges of settings. If you're getting into very small tolerances, then all the sudden you're talking about needing to control dimensions better than you can by just working the brass cases and move into talking about the chamber itself.
One way to increase the grip that I haven't mentioned yet is by increasing neck thickness, which you can do by buying better brass, but then you get into the real crux I led into by talking about controlling the chamber itself, and why I would most likely move away from a standard 223 Rem chamber... this is going to read like "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie":
If I'm going to start playing neck sizing and neck thickness games I would want the chamber cut for a specific neck diameter - got to start with a uniform neck to get the best even release right? If I'm getting a chamber cut, I'm obviously picking the barrel. If I pick the barrel I'm going to get the twist rate for the bullet I want to shoot. That'll be a heavy bullet so I'll want speed. If I want speed I'll AI the chamber. That solves the 23* shoulder angle problem and sets me up for a much more accurate reloading process (and a lot less trimming with accompanying better brass life). [This is where I would also start saying things like I want better BCs so I move to 6mm, I want even more speed so I move up past an AI to a magnum something, yada yada yada, all the sudden I'm doing a reamer print for a 30-338 Lapua Improved and trying to find a barrel blank that can get finished at 32" and I'm back where I started at with a needlessly huge boomer, completely abandoning all common sense].
To stay sane, I'll stick with a 223 Rem AI for arguments sake. At this point I'm into this for a whole lot more than a $190 mic neck bushing die, but because of the much better tolerances in the chamber and being able to spec the throat to make sure my bullet seats correctly in the neck, I'd expect that even in the smaller tuning window I can get much better results than with a standard 223 Rem in a loose chamber. It's going to be harder to execute all the loading steps to the correct tolerances on the smaller case than a larger case, but if you're talking about Type S dies and length of neck sizing then precision is the game you're talking about.
This is why my next planned project after the current 243 AI is a 223 AI. The .224 caliber has a lot of potential and is the next logical step on the .308 to 7mm to 6.5mm to 6mm continuum of going to ever longer and heavier bullets for caliber while keeping charge weight and recoil in check (for shot spotting, follow ups, etc). Unless components free up drastically so I can get back to boomers full-time then something along the lines of a 22-243 AI is very interesting to me. Especially if Berger tops the 90gn VLD with an EOL-like offering that puts up BCs comparable to the 6mms, the .223 caliber could be a 600-yards-and-in monster in precision shooting.
Or just buy a 22 Creedmoor and skip all the fun of spec'ing your own stuff. That's the "new name on something old" offering in .223 that amounts to chambering a 22-250 in a 7 twist barrel and claiming it's the best thing to come around since they made a few minor adjustments and ballistically ended up with a 243 AI they called the 6 Creedmoor. The throating in the SAAMI 22 Creed is better suited to longer bullets than a standard 223 Rem, especially compared to a 10 twist or slower one set up for short varmint bullets.
And there we are, all the way back at the beginning of abandoning the 223 Rem... for a custom 223 Rem AI or the 22 Creed. I keep my manbun on the shelf in my safe next to my 6.5 CMs, BTW
I'm not a Creedmoor hater at all, I've just taken dislike to factory rifles so I'm not limited to the chamberings being pushed right now. The 22 Creed is a move in the right direction though, so I'm all for it especially if it gets me a 100+gn .224 bullet. Shillen has a ratchet rifled 4 groove 6.5 twist that is just absolutely begging for a 22-243 AI and a new 90+gn Berger Hybrid Target.Three reference links:
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
223 Rem Guide for .223 Remington reloading, 223 Rem accuracy, .223 Rem hunting, 223 AI and 5.56x45 rifles. 223 Remington Brass, 22 bullets, powder, primers and loading dies for .223 Remington. Ballistics drop chart for .223 Rem, .223 Ackley AI, 2-250. 223 Remington Black rifle, service rifle...
www.6mmbr.com
Regarding ARs, all I'll say is that it's my opinion that regardless of 223 Rem or 5.56 or 223 Wlyde or whatever chamber you have, you'll want not just all the neck tension you can get, but you might even have to crimp to avoid set back if the brass is thin. The tuning you're trying to get from Type S dies doesn't apply in my AR world - I shoot chrome lined barrels with suppressors and a lot of gas and things get beat up hard. There's no point in my buying nice thick heavy brass because it's going to get sized back down to minimum SAAMI spec and if that overworks it then that's better than a failure to chamber. If I was on a service rifle team shooting a custom chamber for score or varminting or hunting pigs with a thermal things would be a lot different, but I'm not going to bother trying to partial neck size cases for a 14.5" suppressed carbine gas system. I don't even weigh charges, ARs are the only place I use powder drops. I probably couldn't shoot the difference any die could give me through a scope, much less with the EOTechs or Aimpoints I favor. If you're into ARs for precision, please please please ignore my opinion and seek out better advice because that is 100% NOT what I'm going for on that platform.
Last edited:
I am loading for a factory bolt gun and 2 ars, I see what your saying, mostly shoot the bolt gun, honestly now I would probably not get the s type and just get the bushing die for 70.00, I do load for 6.5 creed and 308, the 223 seems a lot more finicky and harder for me to reduce the run out, good brass is key, my 6.5 comes out real straight all the time as well as 308, looking at bushing and mandrel to keep neck tension the same, is there a better way? Also I can shoot 223 in my back yard without ****ing off wife and scaring the dogs, 308 and 6.5 are shooting so good I turned my efforts to the 223, kinda on a mission with this one, but I can see your point with sizing only part of neck, been actually thinking of getting undersize mandrel for lee collet die and running a mandrel through it after to open it a little, would only be 5 bucks.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
223 is going to be exactly what you're experiencing - harder to dial in because the tolerances are so much smaller. I'd work the LCD and mandrels in the -0.0005 to -0.0020 range and tune the necks that way instead of with the mic bushing die.
I think the case is so short that it's more resistant to change, if a case is a little off you're not gonna bring it back much, I'm shooting 1/2 groups with the Savage model 25 walking varminter and realistically I'm probably not gonna be able to squeeze much more out of it, factory cheap ammo I'm lucky to get under an inch, lucky, I'm glad QT for your reply, convinced me to work with what I got and just add the mandrels cause I'll need them for new cases, the 6.5 is a better caliber to get bushing dies for.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
1/2" or better consistently is pretty darn good from a factory spec 223 Rem chamber IMO. 
I have a Rossi break action that I just put a scope on for the first time in at least 10 years, I'm hoping for "pie plate at 25 yards" there
I have a Rossi break action that I just put a scope on for the first time in at least 10 years, I'm hoping for "pie plate at 25 yards" there
Bob Wright
Well-Known Member
After reloading my 223/556 AR, I'm not expecting under an inch at best. The Factory Barnes ammo was very good, better than what I could do. Haven't spent much time with it after that....
I just got in 500 high in rifle cases. Found a fair amount of inconsistency in COAL. All that I checked are shorter that spec out to, which kind of bugs me. So I have taken15 cases and cut the case length to a consistence length. Getting read to cut the necks for thickness before changing the neck DIA. I came to the conclusion to cut 1 cases for thickness to see if it will chambers with the reduce neck to size required. The Smith want to check to see if everything is right on. (I agree) He wants a total of 5 cases to fire to get COAL after firing the cases. (I agree again) I had the neck chamber area reduced to be smaller than spec. So I am reducing the neck size from .284 to .243 caliber chamber. Now I am debating with myself if I am going to anneal the cases after or during that process to reduce the neck size or not. I will be stepping the brass down 3 time to achieve the required neck sizes. The only change is the neck size. The balance of the case is the same as to 280AI case dimensions except to the neck. I am looking for input. I presently have 2 sets of 280AI FL bushing dies on hand. Looking at getting a 3rd set bushing dies, so not having to change out bushing as I do the step down. The 3rd set will set to bump back to .001 to .002. So once set it will be consistence and hopefully I don't have to change those again.
