Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[Surgikill]

Tell ya what. Get out your handy dandy ballistics calculator and compare energies all the way out to 1,000yds between the 6.8 and 270 at hundred yard intervals and get back with us. The difference in the fps makes a HUGE difference on terminal ballistics between the two due to the much higher energy on impact.

No bullet acts the same at all velocities and energies.

I understand that completely, but could it be possible that some of your bullets for your 338 that aren't expanding have a similar thick nose?

And the 270 win has 563 ft. lbs at 1k and the 6.8 has 387. I am not disputing the fact that they perform differently at different velocities, I am just saying that it could be a possibility for your bullets.

And those 140's show the same results at all ranges, which theoretically means that if it performs like that at 100 yards in a 6.8 it should perform like that at 350 with a 270 because at the respective ranges they have the same energy.

I am just trying to help you guys figure out why some bullets act differently than others. Not trying to get into an argument or anything, just posing a different outlook on the problem.

 

[bigngreen]

What twist rates are you guys running in the 6.8, or do you know what the twist rate is on the guy who consistently had the 140 tumble. I know I've seen several 270's twisted at 1-12 which is slow but not horrible. My 270 WSM was 1-11 and my buddies 270 Win is 1-10. We've punched game out in the 600 yard range with them and they have been flawless and we shoot everything behind the shoulder with minimal bone contact, very distinct differences but the bullet is the same so logically that would remove the bullet as the culprit.

I've also shot a lot of milk jugs, magazines and paper reams with the 140 270 because it was one of the first Bergers I used, never had one come out looking like the ones in the 6.8 forum. The one pic looks like the bullet started to open before it turned sideways. Not trying to argue at all, just very interesting since I've shoot a lot of the same bullet with exact opposite results, which seems to point to something other than the bullet which is the only common part the two.

 

[Surgikill]

What twist rates are you guys running in the 6.8, or do you know what the twist rate is on the guy who consistently had the 140 tumble. I know I've seen several 270's twisted at 1-12 which is slow but not horrible. My 270 WSM was 1-11 and my buddies 270 Win is 1-10. We've punched game out in the 600 yard range with them and they have been flawless and we shoot everything behind the shoulder with minimal bone contact, very distinct differences but the bullet is the same so logically that would remove the bullet as the culprit.

I've also shot a lot of milk jugs, magazines and paper reams with the 140 270 because it was one of the first Bergers I used, never had one come out looking like the ones in the 6.8 forum. The one pic looks like the bullet started to open before it turned sideways. Not trying to argue at all, just very interesting since I've shoot a lot of the same bullet with exact opposite results, which seems to point to something other than the bullet which is the only common part the two.

Twist rate is 1-11, same as the 270, in the OP on that 68forums thread the member who shot the caribou has the bullet he found and it looks EXACTLY like the bullets posted on this thread, leading me to believe it may be the thick nose OR the tip being obstructed. He put 2 shots into that caribou, one came out intact and the other disintegrated, who knows why.


EDIT: Could it be possible, that due to berger's ogive that they put on their bullets in order to get a high BC, that the expansion of the bullet is dependent upon the angle that the target is hit at? You would have different contact with different surfaces of the bullet if you compared a quartering away shot to a broadside shot.

 

[bigngreen]

Twist rate is 1-11, same as the 270, in the OP on that 68forums thread the member who shot the caribou has the bullet he found and it looks EXACTLY like the bullets posted on this thread, leading me to believe it may be the thick nose OR the tip being obstructed. He put 2 shots into that caribou, one came out intact and the other disintegrated, who knows why.


EDIT: Could it be possible, that due to berger's ogive that they put on their bullets in order to get a high BC, that the expansion of the bullet is dependent upon the angle that the target is hit at? You would have different contact with different surfaces of the bullet if you compared a quartering away shot to a broadside shot.

It looked like the one poster had it happen very often, I would hope that he would contact Berger!! If someone could get those results consistently then there is a much stronger chance that something could be figured out but so far what we have is one bullet here or there tumbled and did not open on impact for some reason, very hard to figure out the issue!

 

[azsugarbear]

Berger is already aware of this. They have several posts on this particular thread already and are going to be conducting tests themselves. The problem Berger usually has is not being able to get bullets to repeatedly fail in their own tests. Kind of like when we take our truck to the mechanic to fix a problem, but it won't make that funny noise for the mechanic when he takes it for a test drive. Give Berger some time to see what they can come up with.

 

[Crankbender]

FACT all bullets with a tiny hollow point and a thick copper jacket have a pile of threads and posts all over the Internet of bullets that didn't expand on game, doesn't matter if it is a Matchking, TSX or a Berger or anything else. It always seems that the smaller the hollow point and the thicker the jacket the worse it is.


I wish people were smart enough and honest enough with themselves to see this and admit it. Once that happened we all could get together and find a way to make these bullets more reliable!


There is nothing better at expanding a bullet, especially at low velocity, than the outward hydraulic force one can get with a hollow point bullet. Some Ideas to make it more reliable??? I am glad Eric is working on this but we can too.


I would like to try a few things but don't have the time. I have always meant to try the meplat trimming and increasing the size of the hollow point . I have also wanted to try making the hollow point tapered, thinning out the thick copper wadded together at the tip. Have also wanted to try filling the hollow point with Vaseline to ensure there is material to crate hydraulic pressure no matter how little outside material enters the hollow point. Stuff like that.... but that is just me and common ideas... someone out there must be able to come up with something better....

 

[WildRose]

FACT all bullets with a tiny hollow point and a thick copper jacket have a pile of threads and posts all over the Internet of bullets that didn't expand on game, doesn't matter if it is a Matchking, TSX or a Berger or anything else. It always seems that the smaller the hollow point and the thicker the jacket the worse it is.


I wish people were smart enough and honest enough with themselves to see this and admit it. Once that happened we all could get together and find a way to make these bullets more reliable!


There is nothing better at expanding a bullet, especially at low velocity, than the outward hydraulic force one can get with a hollow point bullet. Some Ideas to make it more reliable??? I am glad Eric is working on this but we can too.


I would like to try a few things but don't have the time. I have always meant to try the meplat trimming and increasing the size of the hollow point . I have also wanted to try making the hollow point tapered, thinning out the thick copper wadded together at the tip. Have also wanted to try filling the hollow point with Vaseline to ensure there is material to crate hydraulic pressure no matter how little outside material enters the hollow point. Stuff like that.... but that is just me and common ideas... someone out there must be able to come up with something better....

Actually common sense tells us that anything you do to modify the shape of the bullet such as meplat trimming is going to affect the bullets flight characteristics making it inherently less accurate.

Common sense also tells us that bullets traveling at super sonic speeds will get hot enough to liquify the Vaseline and expel it from the hole before it ever reaches the target.

One of the main reasons many of the manufacturers have moved to the polymer tips is to ensure consistency of opening on impact vs regular hollow point designs.

Eric and the gang will if possible solve this problem through testing and while our ideas can perhaps give them things to consider Eric has already warned us about modifying the tips through trimming etc and how doing so may produce negative performance issues so let's just give them time to work it all out under controlled and consistent conditions.

 

[liltank]

Eric has already warned us about modifying the tips through trimming etc and how doing so may produce negative performance issues so let's just give them time to work it all out under controlled and consistent conditions.

For once, we agree!

 

[Crankbender]

Better if everyone used their brains.

Anyone can throw an idea out there even if they don't have the time to do all the testing. If it's a great idea there are people that will jump on it and try it out.


Oh and on the Vaseline, that one was from John Barsness when he had trouble getting TSX to open up in dry newspaper. I had noticed the same thing when testing out that bullet. After reading John's article I put some in my TSX's and had them open up every time in dry news paper. IT WORKED!

 

[bigngreen]

Better if everyone used their brains.

Anyone can throw an idea out there even if they don't have the time to do all the testing. If it's a great idea there are people that will jump on it and try it out.


Oh and on the Vaseline, that one was from John Barsness when he had trouble getting TSX to open up in dry newspaper. I had noticed the same thing when testing out that bullet. After reading John's article I put some in my TSX's and had them open up every time in dry news paper. IT WORKED!

I've done most of the mods you posted and it makes things get way to aggressive and less predictable than the bullet in it's OEM form. Silicone in the tip works well to initiate expansion as well.

 

[Pdvdh]

Actually common sense tells us that anything you do to modify the shape of the bullet such as meplat trimming is going to affect the bullets flight characteristics making it inherently less accurate.

Competitive target shooters do this very thing. If someone trims the meplat so that it's more consistent than it arrives from the factory, accuracy could be expected to increase.

 

[WildRose]

Competitive target shooters do this very thing. If someone trims the meplat so that it's more consistent than it arrives from the factory, accuracy could be expected to increase.

I'll instead go with the opinion of the guy who makes some of the finest VLD bullets in the world.

You can't change the shape or weight of a bullet without changing it's BC and flight characteristics.

 

[Pdvdh]

I'll instead go with the opinion of the guy who makes some of the finest VLD bullets in the world.

You can't change the shape or weight of a bullet without changing it's BC and flight characteristics.

It's a free world, and you're free to be wrong. You should preach only what you know for a fact, and stop bluffing.

I challenge you to locate and provide us with a reference for any quote from either Eric Stecker or Bryan Litz stating that Meplat uniforming will make their bullets (Berger) less accurate.

 

[WildRose]

It's a free world, and you're free to be wrong. You should preach only what you know for a fact, and stop bluffing.

I challenge you to locate and provide us with a reference for any quote from either Eric Stecker or Bryan Litz stating that Meplat uniforming will make their bullets (Berger) less accurate.

I'm not wrong. You change any variable in the calculation for determning BC and you change the BC and flight characteristics of the bullet. That of course ioncludes changing the mass, shape, or length.

where:

• BCPhysics = ballistic coefficient as used in physics and engineering
• M = mass
• A = cross-sectional area
• Cd = drag coefficient
• ρ (rho) = average density
• l = body length

Eric specifically addressed terminal performance with respect to meplat trimming in cautioning against dong so but did not mention the rest.

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