Nodes, Antinodes and Standing waves?

ColoYooper

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I'd just like to clarify a couple of things: "The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil."
Um no. The rifle begins to recoil with an equal but opposite force the instant the bullet moves forward in the case neck during firing. And as the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the rifle is continuing to recoil. That recoil force vector can and will be displaced by all the forces that the shooter transfers to the stock. Variations in shooter transferred forces due to different shooting positions will cause the POI shift. Now, the question is: How much does the recoil vector shift modify the barrel ring? In a well bedded action, and a fully free floated barrel, the recoil vector shift would have minimal impact to the barrel harmonics.
 
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RockyMtnMT

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I'd just like to clarify a couple of things: "The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil."
Um no. The rifle begins to recoil with an equal but opposite force the instant the bullet moves forward in the case neck during firing. And as the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the rifle is continuing to recoil. That recoil force vector can and will be displaced by all the forces that the shooter transfers to the stock. Variations in shooter transferred forces due to different shooting positions will cause the POI shift. Now, the question is: How much does the recoil vector shift modify the barrel ring? In a well bedded action, and a fully free floated barrel, the recoil vector shift would have minimal impact to the barrel harmonics.

Yes. All the reasons that I think are responsible for my ability to shoot better without a bipod. Shooting stix yes. Because the rifle is not attached to them.

Steve
 

MudRunner2005

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I'd just like to clarify a couple of things: "The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil."
Um no. The rifle begins to recoil with an equal but opposite force the instant the bullet moves forward in the case neck during firing. And as the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the rifle is continuing to recoil. That recoil force vector can and will be displaced by all the forces that the shooter transfers to the stock. Variations in shooter transferred forces due to different shooting positions will cause the POI shift. Now, the question is: How much does the recoil vector shift modify the barrel ring? In a well bedded action, and a fully free floated barrel, the recoil vector shift would have minimal impact to the barrel harmonics.

Bart B, is that you? :cool:
 

bigngreen

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A rifle is recoiling with the bullet in the bore, my brother ran the numbers and an average rifle will see about 3/8ths of an inch of recoil before the bullet leaves the bore. This is also why benchrest guns will go hay wire if they move odd in the bags, it would not matter if the rifle was not in movement while the bullet was in bore.
 

MudRunner2005

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I'd just like to clarify a couple of things: "The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil."
Um no. The rifle begins to recoil with an equal but opposite force the instant the bullet moves forward in the case neck during firing. And as the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the rifle is continuing to recoil. That recoil force vector can and will be displaced by all the forces that the shooter transfers to the stock. Variations in shooter transferred forces due to different shooting positions will cause the POI shift. Now, the question is: How much does the recoil vector shift modify the barrel ring? In a well bedded action, and a fully free floated barrel, the recoil vector shift would have minimal impact to the barrel harmonics.

Yes, the rifle starts "recoiling" the second the bullet starts to move...But we don't feel any of the recoil until long after the bullet has left the muzzle.

So in the .001-.002 seconds of barrel travel, you think that your body has the reaction time to affect the outcome of the shot, when it clearly makes more sense that you move just as, or just before the round fires? I would really like to see a test to prove that the human body could react in .002 seconds to change the outcome of the shot. I'm sure if someone tried it 1000 times, they might could manage it once...But I just don't see it being a likely scenario. It would take a professionally tested and proven result to change my thinking. It's my theory, and you have yours. Let's agree to disagree.
 

Barrelnut

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True the rifle is recoiling while the rifle is in the bore. Strangely lots of times, the perception is that is isn't. The 3/8" before the bullet exits the muzzle is one I've heard before. Thing is the recoil is not instantaneous, it accelerates or speeds up in a non linear fashion, just like a dragster accelerating. That is all due to the difference of weight between the bullet and the rifle. So, the rifle is moving at the instant the bullet is moving forward, the shooter just hasn't felt it yet. Then the recoil impact has to travel thru your nervous system before the human brain even registers it. So before the body recognizes the recoil the bullet is gone.
 

MudRunner2005

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True the rifle is recoiling while the rifle is in the bore. Strangely lots of times, the perception is that is isn't. The 3/8" before the bullet exits the muzzle is one I've heard before. Thing is the recoil is not instantaneous, it accelerates or speeds up in a non linear fashion, just like a dragster accelerating. That is all due to the difference of weight between the bullet and the rifle. So, the rifle is moving at the instant the bullet is moving forward, the shooter just hasn't felt it yet. Then the recoil impact has to travel thru your nervous system before the human brain even registers it. So before the body recognizes the recoil the bullet is gone.

Thank you... This is what I'm saying.
 

RockyMtnMT

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The shooter effects the rifle while the bullet is still in the bore due to shot anticipation (flinch), or force induced to the rifle in order to get it on target. If the rifle is not naturally on target without shooter influence then the rifle will recoil differently. So if you are forcing cant or windage in order to get the rifle on target the recoil will cause a different poi.

Steve
 

ColoYooper

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The forces that the shooter transfers to the stock while the rifle is recoiling is NOT in reaction to the recoil. They are forces that existed prior to the shoot being taken. If you are shooting prone with your cheek pushing with 1lb of force against the side of the stock, you can manipulate the rifle to be on target as you take the shot, but the 1lb of force can take effect as the rifle is recoiling while the bullet is still in the barrel. This can cause the rifle to jump more to the right. vs shooting off a bench where you might have near 0 pounds of cheek pressure on the stock PRIOR to the shoot being taken allowing the POI to be more to the left.
 

Barrelnut

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The forces that the shooter transfers to the stock while the rifle is recoiling is NOT in reaction to the recoil. They are forces that existed prior to the shoot being taken. If you are shooting prone with your face pushing with 1lb of force against the side of the stock, you can manipulate the rifle to be on target as you take the shot, but the 1lb of force can take effect as the rifle is recoiling while the bullet is still in the barrel. This can cause the rifle to jump more to the right. vs shooting off a bench where you might have near 0 pounds of cheek pressure on the stock PRIOR to the shoot being taken allowing the POI to be more to the left.

I think this is understood and no one is saying differently.
 

gohring3006

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The shooter effects the rifle while the bullet is still in the bore due to shot anticipation (flinch), or force induced to the rifle in order to get it on target. If the rifle is not naturally on target without shooter influence then the rifle will recoil differently. So if you are forcing cant or windage in order to get the rifle on target the recoil will cause a different poi.

Steve
I agree Steve, I have forced cant and elevation on a rifle and shot horrible.
Setting up behind the rifle and getting it in a natural/neutral point of aim state and keeping my thumb off the back of the grip and letting it free recoil, always gives me the best results...
 

tbrice23

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I have always worked my loads up at a bench with bipod and rear bag.
I have decided to switch to prone for all of my shooting. Do you guys think I should rework my loads? Or have you experienced the same load work up being "the one", regardless of being on the bench or prone. I understand I'll have to re zero, but I'm wondering if I should do a new work up. Thanks

Ps. Midway has thier competition shooting mat on sale for $24.99.


Edited to add.... I will be using the same set up, bipod and read bag in the prone position...

As hard is it is for me to ignore my front rest and rear bag while at the range, I have dedicated my load development and subsequent practice with all of my hunting rifles on my hunting 'bull' bag.
This takes much more discipline and concentration, POI is 1/2moa different but I want to be absolutely positive that all harmonics, POI, and overall follow through and feel is the same as "game day".

I have realized that the less hold/influence that I induce into the shot the more precise and predictable the outcome ( better groups). Whether it is a 260 rem LR308 or bolt action 300 wm.
Not sure if this is just my physiology or if this can be true for many shooters.
One thing is for sure when im in a match on my 6BR nothing ever touches the rifle but the tip of my finger and the bags. When I first started BR I hated the notion of free recoil, I felt it was cheating.
But results speak loud, oh well it is what it is.
 

Rich Coyle

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One thing is for sure when im in a match on my 6BR nothing ever touches the rifle but the tip of my finger and the bags. When I first started BR I hated the notion of free recoil, I felt it was cheating.
But results speak loud, oh well it is what it is.

I had a 10-22 that would regularly fire five shot 5/8" groups with Yellow Jackets at fifty yards. One day I had this great idea. I went to the hardware store and picked up some 24 grit sand paper with adhesive back. I cut a piece to fit the forearm of the .22 and stuck it on. I laid it on the bag and sorta snuggled it in. Then I got behind it and fired a group. To my dismay the group measured 2"! Removing the sand paper and firing a group again produce another 5/8" like usual.
 

gohring3006

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As hard is it is for me to ignore my front rest and rear bag while at the range, I have dedicated my load development and subsequent practice with all of my hunting rifles on my hunting 'bull' bag.
This takes much more discipline and concentration, POI is 1/2moa different but I want to be absolutely positive that all harmonics, POI, and overall follow through and feel is the same as "game day".

I have realized that the less hold/influence that I induce into the shot the more precise and predictable the outcome ( better groups). Whether it is a 260 rem LR308 or bolt action 300 wm.
Not sure if this is just my physiology or if this can be true for many shooters.
One thing is for sure when im in a match on my 6BR nothing ever touches the rifle but the tip of my finger and the bags. When I first started BR I hated the notion of free recoil, I felt it was cheating.
But results speak loud, oh well it is what it is.
I find it very easy to let my .243, 6.5 Creedmoor and .223 to free recoil with just my finger on the trigger. But my 300 Weatherby 7mm Rem mag and 30-06 are admittedly hard to get used to. I still can do it, but they are definitely a different animal. I let them go free, but still have to stop them with my shoulder.

It definitely shows that knowing your rifles and their actions in the dynamic stage of firing. I shoot 225s in my 300 Weatherby, 208s in the '06 and 162s in the 7 mag, and all three will cut your eye if you don't know how they recoil. They fit me well, and I can shoot them in free recoil, but that doesn't mean my buddy should try it with them, until he sees how they recoil...
 
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