No Hydrodynamic Shock Below 2600FPS??

[Orange Dust]

Didn't do too much meat damage at around 300 yards either. Whitetail buck two years ago

BTW, @300 that bullet was cruising along at only 2463fps. Incapable of hydrodynamic shock. How long did the poor thing suffer???

 

[Calvin45]

BTW, @300 that bullet was cruising along at only 2463fps. Incapable if hydrodynamic shock. How long did the poor thing suffer???

I see your humour haha but have already stated in this thread that Nathan Foster, the expert in question, fully acknowledges that fast kills can happen below that number and that frangible bullets like this play by different rules (also that flat nose bullets seem to hit way harder at slow velocity). He knows what he's talking about. I do happen to agree with him based on my much much more limited experience. With conventional hunting bullets of a spitzer profile At striking velocities of greater than 2600 fps the odds of one of those DRT, struck by lighting kills even without a direct CNS hit starts to increase.

 

[Calvin45]

Add 400fps to the muzzle velocity and the bullet will behave very differently, trust me.

I believe it. I've seen what it does to a line of big pumpkins at that 2800 fps velocity haha.

 

[Orange Dust]

I see your humour haha but have already stated in this thread that Nathan Foster, the expert in question, fully acknowledges that fast kills can happen below that number and that frangible bullets like this play by different rules (also that flat nose bullets seem to hit way harder at slow velocity). He knows what he's talking about. I do happen to agree with him based on my much much more limited experience. With conventional hunting bullets of a spitzer profile At striking velocities of greater than 2600 fps the odds of one of those DRT, struck by lighting kills even without a direct CNS hit starts to increase.

Yes, I'm playing. I read Nathan's stuff a while back. If memory serves he qualified everything with different bullet types, which is correct. I remember it being an interesting read. I think the temporary wound channel has as much to do with it all as anything. Here is an example: shoot a deer a hundred yards away with a 300WSM and a hotloaded 165gr Ballistic tip with a low heart shot blowing out the heart and a bunch of brisket. Watch him run. And run. Over 100yards he may run. Replay the exact shot with a high lung shot. High enough that the temporary wound channel reaches the spinal cord. In this case maybe 1/3 above center or so. Deer is DRT. There might be some bruising in the very front of the backstraps. This is experience not conjecture. The bigger and faster the gun the closer you have to pay attention to bullet construction. Also the bigger and faster the gun the closer attention you have to pay to shot selection and point of impact. With the little guns it is important for quick kills. With big ones it is important to know how big your temporary wound channel is up close with the bullet you have selected, and avoiding heavy bone at all costs. Hit a heavy bone with a big fast bullet and the animal will explode.

 

[Murtfree]

I guess since there doesn't appear to be a clear definition as to what "Hydrostatic shock" is or if it exists, some of us may have our own definitions. I believe it exists to some degree in all calibers but doesn't meet my definition unless you are approaching 4000FPS. And therefore I use it to harvest thin skinned game such as deer with small caliber ..17 up to .25 cal. I can give examples of deer killed with a 30grain 17 caliber bullet, 55 grain .22 caliber bullet, 87 grain bullet in 6mm as well as .25 caliber. All animals were hit in the ribs full broad side and bullets never exited, and the animals never took a step. It was nearly impossible to find the entrance wound as well and there was no blood loss. Without careful examination the deer appeared to just drop over dead for no reason. The autopsies revealed a different story. When the chest cavity was opened most organs were barely identifiable. Lungs were completely pulverized as were most organs within the rib cage. There weren't any functioning organs remaining and this is my definition of hydrostatic shock. And when killed in this manner this is no meat loss. In my opinion there is no reason to discuss hydrostatic shock on larger heavier animals such as bear since you need a heavier constructed bullet to reach the vitals which usually can't be pushed to the velocities needed to cause this type of damage. A lighter caliber bullet like I use for deer would never penetrate deep enough to make a clean kill. I am heading out for Brown Bear in a week and I'll be using a 375 Ackley pushing a 300 grain Accubond at 2800 FPS. I'm not expecting hydrostatic shock to do the killing, but a heavily constructed bullet to cause massive organ damage and blood lose with an exit wound. Will there be any hydrostatic shock? Possibly, but it is of no concern because it won't be the major cause of death

 

[Orange Dust]

I guess since there doesn't appear to be a clear definition as to what "Hydrostatic shock" is or if it exists, some of us may have our own definitions. I believe it exists to some degree in all calibers but doesn't meet my definition unless you are approaching 4000FPS. And therefore I use it to harvest thin skinned game such as deer with small caliber ..17 up to .25 cal. I can give examples of deer killed with a 30grain 17 caliber bullet, 55 grain .22 caliber bullet, 87 grain bullet in 6mm as well as .25 caliber. All animals were hit in the ribs full broad side and bullets never exited, and the animals never took a step. It was nearly impossible to find the entrance wound as well and there was no blood loss. Without careful examination the deer appeared to just drop over dead for no reason. The autopsies revealed a different story. When the chest cavity was opened most organs were barely identifiable. Lungs were completely pulverized as were most organs within the rib cage. There weren't any functioning organs remaining and this is my definition of hydrostatic shock. And when killed in this manner this is no meat loss. In my opinion there is no reason to discuss hydrostatic shock on larger heavier animals such as bear since you need a heavier constructed bullet to reach the vitals which usually can't be pushed to the velocities needed to cause this type of damage. A lighter caliber bullet like I use for deer would never penetrate deep enough to make a clean kill. I am heading out for Brown Bear in a week and I'll be using a 375 Ackley pushing a 300 grain Accubond at 2800 FPS. I'm not expecting hydrostatic shock to do the killing, but a heavily constructed bullet to cause massive organ damage and blood lose with an exit wound. Will there be any hydrostatic shock? Possibly, but it is of no concern because it won't be the major cause of death

I cannot dispute this. I killed 18 bucks in a row with a .220 Swift shooting the old Nosler 50gr solid base bullet, no longer made. Load was 40.2 grs of 4064 in a 26" Heavy Varmint. Every animal would collapse on his front feet. Range on most was 200 or less. What was interesting is that all the deer's blood would be jelled in a ball about 8" in diameter in his lung cavity when shot fairly close. When dressing them, you could cut them anywhere else and there would be very little or no blood. Bullet would usually exit over 100yds. Quit using the little gun because I wanted more range and penetration. Shot about that many more with a .257 Weatherby. Started with 100gr bullets. Found out it killed better and further with 117's. Then the 7's and 300's. Each killed further. then the hopped up 8mag with Warren Jenson's fantastic 210gr J26's @3300. Some of those may still be flying. Had a .375 and a 458 for awhile. They seemed to kill well as far as you could hit anything. .22Mag is far and away the most popular cartridge of the night hunters in Louisiana. They have no problem killing and finding deer at night. My point? I really don't think it matters all that much as long as the bullet expands and has sufficient penetration to tear up body parts necessary for life. While I believe the Swift relied on whatever you are calling shock these days for instant or nearly so kills, All the others killed just as well. Whenever the Temp wound channel overlaps big nerves the animal falls, shock or not. Otherwise, they may run a little ways. Some might get pretty far. I've always been amazed at an animal's will to live and get away, Sometimes with some gruesome holes in them. A large drain hole is a blessing on those that run off. Now adays I always shoot them with something that will provide one. I like to do all my hunting before I pull the trigger. Getting old I guess.

 

[jarnold37]

This I do know. It is indisputable. If you use a big enough gun, hydrostatic, hydrodynamic, hydraulic shock or whatever you want to call it today just doesn't matter.

Not to be disagreeable, but wold like to mention a few field trials I have learned from. A big high sectional density bullet will more than likely deliver a low hydrostatic shock event due to the bullet retaining its mass and not staying in the animal. In comparing two different calibers from the same parent cartridge, there is a big difference in shock. I shot several deer with 338-378 with 300 grain bullet. Many would run a distance before dying. Some bullets would pass through and even in shoulder shots, the deer never experienced a brain hemorage. Also have shot a large number of deer with 30-378. With the 180 grain bullet it would most always pass through with most of the bullets energy going out the other side. One shot killed two deer standing together as the energy was delivered to the deer standing behind. In the 30-378 I dropped down to 125 grain bullet and the difference is dramatic. Velocity is increased to over 4000 fps and the whole rib cage is blood shocked. They most usually drop without a step. Yes, the ballistic coefficient is much less, but no matter, as the increased velocity more than makes up for bc and out to 700 yards I still click less than with the big bullet. In the 338, went to accubond 180 grain and velocity is 3750fps and there is tremendous shock and usually no pass through. In 25-06, the 120 grain would pass through and deliver little shock and deer have run as much as 250 yards with lung shot. Dropped to 87 grain 3550fps and no pass through and much shock. My 10 year old shot his first deer with that bullet at 200 yards and he gut shot it. Killed the deer from the massive shock. But oh what a mess.

 

[Orange Dust]

Not to be disagreeable, but wold like to mention a few field trials I have learned from. A big high sectional density bullet will more than likely deliver a low hydrostatic shock event due to the bullet retaining its mass and not staying in the animal. In comparing two different calibers from the same parent cartridge, there is a big difference in shock. I shot several deer with 338-378 with 300 grain bullet. Many would run a distance before dying. Some bullets would pass through and even in shoulder shots, the deer never experienced a brain hemorage. Also have shot a large number of deer with 30-378. With the 180 grain bullet it would most always pass through with most of the bullets energy going out the other side. One shot killed two deer standing together as the energy was delivered to the deer standing behind. In the 30-378 I dropped down to 125 grain bullet and the difference is dramatic. Velocity is increased to over 4000 fps and the whole rib cage is blood shocked. They most usually drop without a step. Yes, the ballistic coefficient is much less, but no matter, as the increased velocity more than makes up for bc and out to 700 yards I still click less than with the big bullet. In the 338, went to accubond 180 grain and velocity is 3750fps and there is tremendous shock and usually no pass through. In 25-06, the 120 grain would pass through and deliver little shock and deer have run as much as 250 yards with lung shot. Dropped to 87 grain 3550fps and no pass through and much shock. My 10 year old shot his first deer with that bullet at 200 yards and he gut shot it. Killed the deer from the massive shock. But oh what a mess.

You are not wrong, but shoot one with a 180gr ballistic tip in your 30-378. It will mess him up more than the 125. Bullet will still blow up and there is more of it. 30-378 is really cool with 180gr Swift Sciroccos. It will pull lots of gunk out of the exit hole for 50yds and in neat little ribbons. Kills deer like Thor's Hammer too. You are right about bullet velocity. You can also change the wound channel and the effect it has with bullet construction.

 

[jpndave]

My takeaway from when I dove into Foster's writing was that the "hydrostatic shock" induced a temporary coma and then the animal bled out or otherwise died. If they recover from the shock before death, they can get back up. Made sense when I read it and still think he is on the right track. He certainly has more experience than most. I don't recall anywhere that the over 2600fps or shock was required for a clean kill, just that it was required for that particular set of conditions, ie to induce the temporary coma. Without a cns hit, the shock was what gave the struck by lightning, instant results. An animal shot end to end with my 45/70 and solid flat points is no less dead than one with the 300 PRC and (insert your favorite expanding bullet here) with a massive energy dump. It just happens differently.

 

[Orange Dust]

Another thing about this "hydrostatic Shock" thing. Hooved animals seem to be immune to it after being hit the first time.

 

[Calvin45]

I cannot dispute this. I killed 18 bucks in a row with a .220 Swift shooting the old Nosler 50gr solid base bullet, no longer made. Load was 40.2 grs of 4064 in a 26" Heavy Varmint. Every animal would collapse on his front feet. Range on most was 200 or less. What was interesting is that all the deer's blood would be jelled in a ball about 8" in diameter in his lung cavity when shot fairly close. When dressing them, you could cut them anywhere else and there would be very little or no blood. Bullet would usually exit over 100yds. Quit using the little gun because I wanted more range and penetration. Shot about that many more with a .257 Weatherby. Started with 100gr bullets. Found out it killed better and further with 117's. Then the 7's and 300's. Each killed further. then the hopped up 8mag with Warren Jenson's fantastic 210gr J26's @3300. Some of those may still be flying. Had a .375 and a 458 for awhile. They seemed to kill well as far as you could hit anything. .22Mag is far and away the most popular cartridge of the night hunters in Louisiana. They have no problem killing and finding deer at night. My point? I really don't think it matters all that much as long as the bullet expands and has sufficient penetration to tear up body parts necessary for life. While I believe the Swift relied on whatever you are calling shock these days for instant or nearly so kills, All the others killed just as well. Whenever the Temp wound channel overlaps big nerves the animal falls, shock or not. Otherwise, they may run a little ways. Some might get pretty far. I've always been amazed at an animal's will to live and get away, Sometimes with some gruesome holes in them. A large drain hole is a blessing on those that run off. Now adays I always shoot them with something that will provide one. I like to do all my hunting before I pull the trigger. Getting old I guess.

I too would not believe how far things can run while being dead, just not knowing it yet. Wouldn't believe it except that I've seen it. It's why I like exit wounds. Unless you can guarantee that you're NEVER going to be off by more than half an inch at any distance from any shooting position, you can't make hitting the brain or spine your entire strategy. It's a bad strategy. And sometimes no matter what caliber and shot placement (unless it's the CNS) the critter isn't going down immediately and there's nothing that changes that fact. Exit wounds (especially in snow) are wonderful things.

The animals mental state at time of impact matters too, not just the adrenaline after it's hit. The craziest thing I've seen was a whitetail buck (I don't know why elk get a reputation of being sooooo much tougher than deer…just that they're bigger and can soak up more of a hit but holy smokes I've seen boring old deer exhibit mental determination that nothing would outdo).

Broadside, slightly quartering toward, 200 ish yards with a 270. Hornady 130 interlock at 3200 fps muzzle. Perfect performance, exited after absolutely blowing up the chest, smashed the shoulder going in, completely severed big arteries right at the heart, fragment actually in the heart, totally destroyed/shredded offside lung, AMD THERE WAS A 3 inch or so CHUNK OF RIB-BONE just laying in the snow at the end of a vivid bright (lung) red spray in the snow about 8 feet long. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a .300 rum or a flipping 460 wby i don't think. So much damage. And he covered half a mile in thick brush up and down ravines. Was a real work out getting him.

When I pulled the trigger he was looking right at me with his tail up. Right before that he was chasing two does who seemed to not be trying that hard to evade his attention if you know what I mean . So he thought he was about to get lucky, pumped right full of testosterone and then pre-shot adrenaline cuz he noticed me and was already on high alert at the shot. I am convinced that had he been alone and not noticed me there's no way he would have gone even a third that far.

 

[Alibiiv]

You're awfully quick though to insult the members of this board.

You're out of line.

I'm looking for one of his posts so I can assign this one to the "ignore" button!!!!" If someone doesn't like what another said, simply go to another thread or ignore them and stop whining!!!!

 

[Orange Dust]

I too would not believe how far things can run while being dead, just not knowing it yet. Wouldn't believe it except that I've seen it. It's why I like exit wounds. Unless you can guarantee that you're NEVER going to be off by more than half an inch at any distance from any shooting position, you can't make hitting the brain or spine your entire strategy. It's a bad strategy. And sometimes no matter what caliber and shot placement (unless it's the CNS) the critter isn't going down immediately and there's nothing that changes that fact. Exit wounds (especially in snow) are wonderful things.

The animals mental state at time of impact matters too, not just the adrenaline after it's hit. The craziest thing I've seen was a whitetail buck (I don't know why elk get a reputation of being sooooo much tougher than deer…just that they're bigger and can soak up more of a hit but holy smokes I've seen boring old deer exhibit mental determination that nothing would outdo).

Broadside, slightly quartering toward, 200 ish yards with a 270. Hornady 130 interlock at 3200 fps muzzle. Perfect performance, exited after absolutely blowing up the chest, smashed the shoulder going in, completely severed big arteries right at the heart, fragment actually in the heart, totally destroyed/shredded offside lung, AMD THERE WAS A 3 inch or so CHUNK OF RIB-BONE just laying in the snow at the end of a vivid bright (lung) red spray in the snow about 8 feet long. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a .300 rum or a flipping 460 wby i don't think. So much damage. And he covered half a mile in thick brush up and down ravines. Was a real work out getting him.

When I pulled the trigger he was looking right at me with his tail up. Right before that he was chasing two does who seemed to not be trying that hard to evade his attention if you know what I mean . So he thought he was about to get lucky, pumped right full of testosterone and then pre-shot adrenaline cuz he noticed me and was already on high alert at the shot. I am convinced that had he been alone and not noticed me there's no way he would have gone even a third that far.

Yes, I think the Elk/deer thing comes from Mule Deer. Those things seem to give up and die quicker than anything else their size. Much easier to kill IMO than eastern Whitetails. I hunted those in really thick places and in flooded green timber where blood trails are fairy dust. Without a CNS hit it takes a big, bad, fast gun to put one down in his tracks, not most of the time, but every time.

 

[Orange Dust]

I too would not believe how far things can run while being dead, just not knowing it yet. Wouldn't believe it except that I've seen it. It's why I like exit wounds. Unless you can guarantee that you're NEVER going to be off by more than half an inch at any distance from any shooting position, you can't make hitting the brain or spine your entire strategy. It's a bad strategy. And sometimes no matter what caliber and shot placement (unless it's the CNS) the critter isn't going down immediately and there's nothing that changes that fact. Exit wounds (especially in snow) are wonderful things.

The animals mental state at time of impact matters too, not just the adrenaline after it's hit. The craziest thing I've seen was a whitetail buck (I don't know why elk get a reputation of being sooooo much tougher than deer…just that they're bigger and can soak up more of a hit but holy smokes I've seen boring old deer exhibit mental determination that nothing would outdo).

Broadside, slightly quartering toward, 200 ish yards with a 270. Hornady 130 interlock at 3200 fps muzzle. Perfect performance, exited after absolutely blowing up the chest, smashed the shoulder going in, completely severed big arteries right at the heart, fragment actually in the heart, totally destroyed/shredded offside lung, AMD THERE WAS A 3 inch or so CHUNK OF RIB-BONE just laying in the snow at the end of a vivid bright (lung) red spray in the snow about 8 feet long. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a .300 rum or a flipping 460 wby i don't think. So much damage. And he covered half a mile in thick brush up and down ravines. Was a real work out getting him.

When I pulled the trigger he was looking right at me with his tail up. Right before that he was chasing two does who seemed to not be trying that hard to evade his attention if you know what I mean . So he thought he was about to get lucky, pumped right full of testosterone and then pre-shot adrenaline cuz he noticed me and was already on high alert at the shot. I am convinced that had he been alone and not noticed me there's no way he would have gone even a third that far.

The RUM would have flattened him with SOME but not ALL bullets. If you has used a RUM and a bullet that had a large enough temporary wound channel to also have disrupted the spinal cord, DRT. Also, if the bullet has enough remaining velocity to turn the shoulder you hit into secondary projectiles you would get the picture I posted earlier, also DRT. Blew that deer in half by accidentally hitting a little bone on entry. I was shooting down on her. Hit just a tad high and hit the back of the scapular. She was also slightly quartering toward me at a little over 100. With the 190's its pretty much Thor's hammer on deer. So much so you have to be pretty careful where you hit them if dinner is the plan. That old 8MM flattened everything I ever got in front of it. Of course it had about 5000fpe so maybe it WAS Thor's hammer. It was spectacular hunting in knee deep water in green timber once I found the right bullet. With the wrong bullet it would completely destroy a deer. Set back pretty hard on the other end too. Was before brakes were popular. This was before the RUM was invented and performance was close to an Edge. Also was overloaded I suspect. Brass didn't last very long. We didn't know then what we know now.