Necessary precision to kill something

[Huntnful]

This is a good listen. Just crunching numbers on how much group size changes hit probability.



Spoiler: out to 700 yards

Going from .5 to 1 MOA is a 1% decrease
Going from .5 to 1.5 MOA is a 5% decrease

Adding a 2 MPH wind variance is a 30% decrease.

 

[willfrye027]

Good stuff. Tracks with my experience on steel, although could just be confirmation bias.

Last week shooting the .223 at 715 yards cross canyon in 7-10mph fairly gusty/variable winds, 12" steel, my hit rate was dismal. Probably 10% over 50 rounds.

This week same spot but 4-6mph winds and I was at 40/50ish. At 600 yards it was 14/15 hits. 500 yards 10/10 hits.

This is with a 1.5-2.0moa load (20 round groups). Would have been temping to tinker with the load after the first session but the WIND makes me miss, not my mediocre groups..

 

[Quicksilver338]

Wind will make one of my accurate rifles look bad real quick. Especially on that first shot…shooter error and other stuff is involved. But if your rifle can hold moa to distance, you're killing a lot of animals!

 

[TheSouthpaw]

100%.

People should go shoot in actual mountains at distance on vital-sized targets and realize chasing small groups and shooting a flat range or on a bench is not your best use of practice time. Most folks cannot call wind within 4 mph at their position, let alone at the target and in between. Especially in mountainous terrain.

Wind, updrafts, downdrafts, shooting position, brush/obstacles, slopes, rifle zero, heart rate, etc are legitimate hunting variables that nobody accounts for in stale shooting practice.

Then add a timer to up the pressure and folks really fall apart.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I will add this…
Do you shoot groups at game, or do you shoot 1 precise shot, then follow up if necessary?
If you have the gear, know the wind and can read the conditions, only 1 shot should be needed.
It's the same as worrying about a load that sometimes prints in the .2's, but another load stays at .3's no matter the conditions…I know which load I would choose every time.

Cheers.

 

[Lenny Foffa]

I learned at the Bang Steel Shooting school , in my second session, that shooting a 130 Grn. Bullet ay 3300 FPS out of my 270 Weatherby Mag , is not able to produce precise groups in High Wind Conditions at ranges out past 400 yards. I was unable to hit targets I had easily shot the year before , with the same rifle / scope combo but using the 150 Grn Nosler ABLR bullets, i at 3000 fps in gentle to moderate wind conditions. So speaking only for myself, If I cannot shoot 1 to 2 MOA with a high degree of confidence, due to the RANGE or the WIND or a combination of BOTH, then I must not take the shot. If I know the Rifle / Scope/ Load combo is suitable for Ex; 300 to 350 yards,( my 270 Win Ultra-light Rifle) then I have no business taking 650 to 700 yards shots with that particular set up. I believe there is a high probability of Wounding the deer, and losing it , only to have it bleed out and die later. I think knowing the true characteristics of your Hunting Set Up and YOUR personal ability to accurately and precisely control it, will require a personal sense of discipline, and confidence. I think that can be achieved, with lots of practice shooting at extended ranges. IMHO, So with the appropriate Rifle/ Scope Load Combo hitting a 24x24 inch plywood target at 900 yards, and shooting a 9 inch to 10 inch Groupe is great practice for sure, and that should be at least what I would ( personally ) expect before I would attempt to kill and Elk or Mule deer at that same range. Just my personal feeling on this issue.

 

[Greyfox]

YES…Good listen!
An excellent book that discusses this topic in detail is Bryan Litz's book "Accracy and Precision for Long Shooting". His term is WEZ….Weapon Employment Zone. His caveat is that the two "indeterminates" are wind and cartridge to cartridge variation.
Given the determinates(shooting skills, ballistics, ranging, etc) are well mastered, the greatest ROI for the LR hunter in expanding range is the quest for the perfect load, and the continuing development of wind reading skills… .

 

[BrentM]

I try and tell people that hunting long range requires exceptional accuracy and to be consistent at it you have to be exceptional as well. For me, I need at least .5 moa accuracy at 1000 to be effect on wolves. So that means hitting a 5" plate……. So backing that down to a realistic accuracy of 1 moa a shooter is sub 700. I've found that is way more true than I want to admit but throw in winter conditions, stress, very uncomfortable shooting platforms, and 1 moa quickly becomes the accuracy level, if not worse. This year I've been pulling back my ego affective range but still practicing beyond that.

 

[redchinviking]

100%.

People should go shoot in actual mountains at distance on vital-sized targets and realize chasing small groups and shooting a flat range or on a bench is not your best use of practice time. Most folks cannot call wind within 4 mph at their position, let alone at the target and in between. Especially in mountainous terrain.

Wind, updrafts, downdrafts, shooting position, brush/obstacles, slopes, rifle zero, heart rate, etc are legitimate hunting variables that nobody accounts for in stale shooting practice.

Then add a timer to up the pressure and folks really fall apart.

I couldn't agree more. I tell my friends and dad this all the time and feel like I'm talking to a wall. Shooting at the range even weekly in perfect morning no wind conditions from prone or bench teaches said person absolutely zilch about their true hit probability in the field. (Unless they are shooting prone with no wind, which is unlikely) But they think they are a good shooter…till they miss a deer or buck of a lifetime! Choosing to practice in the wind in different shooting positions is often overlooked in most hunters season preparation. Perhaps they are even more important than the fundamentals once they are down pat. I practice different shooting positions every trip to the range, as for practice in the wind, I need to do more as I often prefer morning trips to the range for a lot of reasons and wind is usually minimal. When I do shoot wind I feel like I learn something every time.

 

[bultinkle]

Another important thing to remember is that the light gun 1k Br world record aggregate is in the .4s

 

[TheDuckMaster]

I wish people would stop using precise when referring to hunting bullets hitting their intended target. Just too many variables to be precise or in other words have a repeatable and measurable result. However if your killzone is let's say "approximately" 10 inches or a paper plate. And you hit that paper plate you are accurate. Accurate because you can within reason put all of your shots in the plate. Even though they may can be 10 inches apart.

I think the confusion is because you hear about precisely built rifles. "That's a presion gun!" In other words headspace and bolt faces for rifle ABC will be the same presion tolerance of 100 rifles built with a allowable tolerance of .005 for heads space and .0025 for bolt face.

But those PRECISE (repeatable ) tolerances are there because variables are reduced in the build. However, that build precision "cannot ever" be be carried over to the bullet impact as human variables, weather, altitude, BC, bullet design, weight and many other variables efect the impact of the bullet. However, that bullet will be accurate as it will meet the shooters expectations for delivery.

Heres a very simple example. If a Eric Cortina shoots 1.03 aggregate at 1000 yards he is precise, however if all of those shots are outside a 10 inch pie plate because he didn't dope the wind correctly he's not accurate. Yet a hunter shoots a 5 shots group 10 inches apart at 1000 yards he is accurate and precise because he can repeatedly hit the kill zone.

In closing think about it, good rifle rifle builder advertise 1/2 MOA accuracy out of the box. They can do this as that precisely built rifle and the human factor was removed when testing. Heck even unlimited heavy class bench rifles (Rail Guns) are said to extremely accurate usung precise built rifles. But they can never be precise as all it takes is a flyer to ruin the statistics.

Remember this simple rule...Accurate is being correct, Precision is being repeatable!

The title should be..."Required Accuracy for Long Range"

 

[memtb]

Wind will make one of my accurate rifles look bad real quick. Especially on that first shot…shooter error and other stuff is involved. But if your rifle can hold moa to distance, you're killing a lot of animals!

Absolutely - bullet drop is a constant, wind……not so much! memtb

 

[ChrisInKY]

Most folks cannot call wind within 4 mph at their position, let alone at the target and in between. Especially in mountainous terrain.

Wind, updrafts, downdrafts, shooting position, brush/obstacles, slopes, rifle zero, heart rate, etc are legitimate hunting variables

It really is a life-long endeavor. 700m is a whole 'nuther game and extra distance just adds to the complexity. I also doubt many could follow-up more accurately @ 700m. It's been my experience that lining up for a second shot on a living target is a rare event indeed.

Only people routinely sit still and try to figure out where that initial shot came from.

 

[cabelasken]

I learned at the Bang Steel Shooting school , in my second session, that shooting a 130 Grn. Bullet ay 3300 FPS out of my 270 Weatherby Mag , is not able to produce precise groups in High Wind Conditions at ranges out past 400 yards. I was unable to hit targets I had easily shot the year before , with the same rifle / scope combo but using the 150 Grn Nosler ABLR bullets, i at 3000 fps in gentle to moderate wind conditions. So speaking only for myself, If I cannot shoot 1 to 2 MOA with a high degree of confidence, due to the RANGE or the WIND or a combination of BOTH, then I must not take the shot. If I know the Rifle / Scope/ Load combo is suitable for Ex; 300 to 350 yards,( my 270 Win Ultra-light Rifle) then I have no business taking 650 to 700 yards shots with that particular set up. I believe there is a high probability of Wounding the deer, and losing it , only to have it bleed out and die later. I think knowing the true characteristics of your Hunting Set Up and YOUR personal ability to accurately and precisely control it, will require a personal sense of discipline, and confidence. I think that can be achieved, with lots of practice shooting at extended ranges. IMHO, So with the appropriate Rifle/ Scope Load Combo hitting a 24x24 inch plywood target at 900 yards, and shooting a 9 inch to 10 inch Groupe is great practice for sure, and that should be at least what I would ( personally ) expect before I would attempt to kill and Elk or Mule deer at that same range. Just my personal feeling on this issue.

I agree 100% and shooting under field conditions really separates those who can and those who can't. Wounding an animal is not an option.