Very well said, regardless of bullet choice all of the mechanics have got to be in line
Impact Velocity + Bullet performance@ your desired Range
My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.
- Thread starter Petey308
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Impact Velocity + Bullet performance@ your desired Range
I don't know what a plexus of nerves is but I would think hydrostatic shock of a 12 gauge shot shell in close proximity to brain stem, vagus nerve, etc would cause lights out if the stated theory were valid. I'm not familiar with Nathan Foster but I will be. I'm in no way trying to be argumentative. i agree large animal anatomy differs from humans but to a man, the medical experts I was associated with at the time agreed the only things that can be counted on for incapacitation is disrupting the CNS via the brain stem or rapid blood loss through penetration and laceration of major organs. Thank you for creating discussion and your other post on bullet construction. It was very informative and I'm sure a lot of work.
I don't mind at all. I really appreciate civil discussions and without bias on any one bullet. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and their place.
I had a lot of issues with cup and core bullets once too, and it was one big reason I switched to copper bullets when I did too. After using copper bullet for a long time, and actually never losing an animal with them (so take that for what it's worth), I did ultimately go back to cup and core bullets. During the time I was using the copper bullets, I was getting really deep into researching all this stuff and I started figuring out what I was doing wrong with the cup and cores. So I tried experimenting with the new knowledge and starting having much better overall performance compared to what I was getting with the solids I was using. I've continued that success now for several years and and been able to share this knowledge and advice with honestly quite a few people, including customers, and I've yet to have anyone tell me it didn't work amazing. It does feel good.
Since switching back to cup and core bullets though, there's been a lot of new companies making solids that I've yet to actually try myself. Maker, Badlands, Hammer, etc are a few examples, although I have been sent a few to at least cross-section. I've not seen what I consider to be any true game changing technology though. The Terminal Shock bullets from DRT are still my absolute favorite lead free bullets abd I have actually used those.
I guess the way I see it in your example, is that a 12ga shotgun straight to the face like that isn't going to meet the resistance required to send a shockwave via hydrostatic shock to the brain, even though it's in such close proximity. If a projectile just punched right through, it's not experiencing the resistance required to transfer energy through a shockwave. It's just simply blowing on through. Just because it a huge blast and a large projectile doesn't equate to there being a electrical shockwave sent through the body/head.
I can assure you though that it does happen and many other hunters I'm sure can share experiences where they've seen it, even if they didn't understand that's what they were seeing.
Very interesting I've read all of page 1 and skimmed page 2. I'll go back and thoroughly re-read the entire thread.
Here's an example of a temporary shut down from last week in NM.
I shot a bull straight up the leg and right in the middle of the chest, what's called the middle of the deadly V by archers. The guide saw the impact and said I 10 ringed him.
This shot was at 547 yards with a 230 berger from a 30 nosler. Retained velocity was 2330 fps and energy was 2770.
That bull went down and didn't even twitch after the shot. We watched him for 10 minutes while I tried to control the shaking after the shot. I unloaded my rifle and was about to pack up for the move. As I'm just starting to gather my stuff my guide calmly states, hey your bull is up. I look at him in disbelief! He was up but not looking good. Not moving and head hung low. He was essentially dead but refused to admit it.
I told the guide, same spot 6 inches higher, I was determined to shock the spine this time and did.
After quartering the bull we pulled a rib and the lungs poured out in a sloppy mess. How that bull stood after 10 minutes of shredded lungs is beyond me.
Full story in the elk hunting forum.
Here's an example of a temporary shut down from last week in NM.
I shot a bull straight up the leg and right in the middle of the chest, what's called the middle of the deadly V by archers. The guide saw the impact and said I 10 ringed him.
This shot was at 547 yards with a 230 berger from a 30 nosler. Retained velocity was 2330 fps and energy was 2770.
That bull went down and didn't even twitch after the shot. We watched him for 10 minutes while I tried to control the shaking after the shot. I unloaded my rifle and was about to pack up for the move. As I'm just starting to gather my stuff my guide calmly states, hey your bull is up. I look at him in disbelief! He was up but not looking good. Not moving and head hung low. He was essentially dead but refused to admit it.
I told the guide, same spot 6 inches higher, I was determined to shock the spine this time and did.
After quartering the bull we pulled a rib and the lungs poured out in a sloppy mess. How that bull stood after 10 minutes of shredded lungs is beyond me.
Full story in the elk hunting forum.
It's truly amazing sometimes how some animals defy death like that lol. I've seen quite a few examples myself over the years. I've also seen the other side of the spectrum where they die and you're surprised they did lol.
DoneNOut
Well-Known Member
The deadest I've ever seen an animal die was when I shot an 8pt whitetail at 60yds with a 290gr Barnes T-EZ muzzleloader bullet 1950fps MV. I hit it center of the shoulder and it didn't even take a step. Fell over like a saw horse pushed over. LOL I've shot 8 or so deer with that bullet within 100yds and the farthest one made it on hooves was 18yds. Their knees and elbows buckle and the hide ripples like no other.
Canhunter35
Well-Known Member
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- Jun 13, 2017
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Lol used to be Berger fans who did the ganging up.
I appreciate both threads the mirror my experience with bullets. I've used a lot of eld on game with great results, after reading ur post I'm excited to give the 195tmk a whirl I always used them for matches. in my 7mm I could not get the 180eldm to shoot swapped to the 180 Berger hybrid and that bullet work amazing, I've shot deer from 50 yards to 842 yards with perfect performance, elk and moose out to 590yds again worked great
Hand Skills
Well-Known Member
Yup, people get real passionate about their bullets around here.
Nice to see some respectful discussion, that seems to be a rarity these days...
Long live LRH!
Nice to see some respectful discussion, that seems to be a rarity these days...
Long live LRH!
memtb
Well-Known Member
When exactly did Kalifornia start to outlaw bullets with lead content?
Too much penetration?
If we rely heavily upon hydrostatic shock, ft./lbs. energy transfer, and non exit.....why are wide metplat, hard cast (non or very limited expanding), slow moving bullets so effective at killing game?
Asking for an inquisitive friend! memtb
Too much penetration?
If we rely heavily upon hydrostatic shock, ft./lbs. energy transfer, and non exit.....why are wide metplat, hard cast (non or very limited expanding), slow moving bullets so effective at killing game?
Asking for an inquisitive friend! memtb
You won't. We don't want to see another thread get nuked due to poor conduct. If our new members are coming into this thread, I am sure that they will keep things civil and on topic with no unprovoked ad hominem attacks
Thanks again for all of this information. I haven't learned this much about anything bullet related in a very long time.
Huntnful
Well-Known Member
The biologists used the endangered condor as a scape goat and said that the left over lead shot in birds and deer were giving the condors lead poisoning and killing them when they scavenged from the carcasses. Complete crap.
