My .260 died - need to pick a new 6.5 for Africa!

[WindTrax]

Hi folks!

First, wanted to say I've posted a similar question over at 6mmBR so for those that frequent both sites, this may be a repeat.

I was hoping to get some information on 6.5 options; I'm headed to Africa on a plains game hunt in a bit under 4 months and unfortunately I just found out there were very serious problems with my current custom .260 - the prior gunsmith had not mounted the barrel correctly, stock has started a crack, and other problems as well. All bad timing as we leave in 3 - 4 months!

So I need to decide the next caliber very quickly for a rifle buildup, and though I found a gun smith who will turn it around very fast and who is very good, I know that time window is very tight for ordering custom reamers, dies, etc. if we go with a wild cat, though it's not entirely out of the question.

Here are the design requirements I've set.

24" Lilja #4 fluted barrel;
Action must be Rem SHORT Action but as we're buying a new action, any bolt face offered by Rem is ok; we'll also be using a thicker recoil lug, higher spring rate and lightened firing pin to help improve accuracy overall
Goal is to try to move a 140-ish grain bullet (Nosler Partition, Accubond or 130gr Barnes TSX - or something very similar - 2800fps out of a fairly short 24" barrel
Note: I never plan on using the gun for any bullets shorter than at least the 125gr Nosler Partition or similarly sized bullets.

Here are some of the cases the gun smith and I are talking about:
6.5x47 / 6.5XC / .260 Rem / .260 Rem AI ... one other option would be to use the 6.5x.284, but seat the bullets deeply to fit into the short Rem action / possibly a wildcat based on a shortened Rem SA UM case... 6.5x55, though a great round, won't work I believe in a short action or we'd have given it serious thought. Also thought about the 6.5 Rem Magnum but I'd like to avoid the belt if possible.

NOTE: this smith is confident that using a Wyatt magazine box, he can get nearly a 3.1" cartridge OAL to feed in the Rem short action.

Also, one other option would be a possible wild cat; my figures seem to show that a 6.5 based on a 7mm Rem short action ultra mag or WSM case shortened, using a cartridge OAL of about 1.920 to perhaps 2.000 inches, and a .300 or .350 neck might achieve the velocity goal of 2800+fps, good length for a short action. I am guesstimating such a wild cat would get us to around 53 to 57 grains case capacity when loaded to the neck/shoulder junction, which is where I'm guessing we'll need to be. Has anyone tried a shortened Rem SA UM or WSM case yet? I know David Tubb was working on the 7mm XK in 2002 for an appx production date of 2004, but it sounds like it never came to fruition... disappointing as I think it would be an excellent answer for both hunters requiring a short action, AR owners, and 1000k shooters.

Thanks for any info, we only have a 2-3 days to get the ball rolling if I am going to have time to work loads up for the completed rifle before we go to South Africa. Thanks gang!!!

Also, any velocity figures from folks using bullets in the 125 to 140grain range in 24-ish inch barrels in any rounds in this range would be very appreciated!

Scott L.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Seems that a 7mm-08 would get you where you want w/o any heart ache.

 

[James Jones]

I assume that you already have a the barrel , action and stock? this is what takes so long on the build.

My oppintion would be to use the 260 case , it will get you the speed your looking for , its very easy load for even if you have to make brass from 308 or 243. The case will feed from the SA alot better than the 284 will when you seat the bullet out far.

 

[WindTrax]

I assume that you already have a the barrel , action and stock? this is what takes so long on the build.

My oppintion would be to use the 260 case , it will get you the speed your looking for , its very easy load for even if you have to make brass from 308 or 243. The case will feed from the SA alot better than the 284 will when you seat the bullet out far.

Yes, totally understand. Had a couple built before. So, the good news is that actually I have 2 Lilja 1-in-8 twist, 3-lands barrels to choose from, and the smith has the stock and about 20 spare stainless actions he just got in 1 lot, assorted configs. to choose from. Even better, the smith has a private source that can turn around a reamer and dies in only 2 weeks if I want to try shortening a WSM case down to get around 49 to 53 grains of powder in a case considerably shorter than the .260 I was using before - and getting a bit more velocity in the process.

My only concern with the .260 is that when loaded with 140s to feed from a short action, they do have to be fairly deeply seated into the boiler room down past the neck/shoulder junction, taking up case capacity. Because of the reduced case capacity, out of a 24" barrel I'm estimating it will put me at only around 2700fps. Love to hear though if folks are seeing to the contrary using 140s on a *short action* and with a barrel that's only 24 inches. Thanks for any feedback and velocity numbers folks may have -especially if they are around that length of barrel!

Anyone here by chance have any velocity numbers for a 6.5-25WSSM around that length of barrel? I'm guessing it may still put me a bit shy on powder capacity - probably around the 6.5XC and 6.5x47... but I'd be happy to be wrong

Thanks again for any info.

Scott

 

[WindTrax]

Seems that a 7mm-08 would get you where you want w/o any heart ache.

Sorry Steve, I have to admit to already having been diagnosed with the 6.5 terminal ailment. It's incurable. And anyway, where would the fun be in that?

Plus I've had truly gut-wrenching experiences hunting with the 7mm-08 on a couple deer in the past. It's very anecdotal, I know, but for me I got very serious non-expansion at 20 to 75 yards with my prior factory 7mm-08, and have experienced absolutely no problems at all with the .260 I had in 10 animals since, all 1 shot, extremely quick kills between 12 and around 250 yards. I'd still go with a .260, but I'm really, really hoping for around 100 fps more velocity and better cartridge OAL length for use in my short action than the .260 gave me with long 140s. With the .260 I was limited to 125 Nosler Partition bullets if I didn't want to significantly encroach on the powder space .

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Must have been the bullet. I only went there because it seems that the short action that you want is what is holding you back for the velocity that you want.

Are the BC's that much better in 6.5's than the 7's? Curious just because one of these days I will have something built on an old model 70 30-06 that I have. 6.5-284 is one that has intrigued me.

PS. I also thought that time was a problem for you.

Steve

 

[WindTrax]

Must have been the bullet. I only went there because it seems that the short action that you want is what is holding you back for the velocity that you want.

Are the BC's that much better in 6.5's than the 7's? Curious just because one of these days I will have something built on an old model 70 30-06 that I have. 6.5-284 is one that has intrigued me.

PS. I also thought that time was a problem for you.

Steve

Good point on the time Steve, and thanks. The suprisingly good news is that the gun smith I'm working with has an ace up his sleeve - he has a source that can turn around a wild cat set of reamers and dies in 2 weeks - wow was I suprised - pleasantly. The gun smith has top notch recommendations from several friends and I trust his judgement on subs. I came up with some wild cat specs last night I think might work... I'll put them in a new thread for general feedback from folks. I agree, in the long run it points to the bullet... I was just leery of all 7mm bullets as being a bit less than optimal out of a 308 case as it left me wondering if the bullet manufacturers might be primarily designing jacket thicknesses to withstand 7mm Rem Mag velocities due to the largest number of commonly used rifles out there for hunting probably being in that caliber - but it was just a guess, and it gave me an excuse to try a new round

The 6.5 ballistic numbers truly are pretty inspiring - thus the large number of folks switching to it and winning with them in the 1000m competitions... but the benefit is largely beyond ranges I will likely shoot any time soon personally. Still the new cartridge wild cat I'm proposing will hopefully fill a small gap in the current lineup of cartridges that appeal to the 1k crowd and hopefully the AR folks as well if it will feed correctly. Time will tell.

 

[Wild_Bill]

6.5 Rem SAUM

Hi get the Rem SAUM case and neck it to 6.5 you will have an awsome round. you can use a Redding type S full length bushing die in 7mmSAUM and use a smaler bushing for the 6.5 neck after forming. you could get a 260 rem competition neck die and ream it to make your cases and a 260 competition seater can be reamed to suit the cartridge to load your ammo. if you are using the Wyats mag box you will be good to go.

3 other options with a 3.1" mag are 6.5X55, 6.5X57, and 6.5-284.

Cheers Bill
Australia

 

[WindTrax]

Hi get the Rem SAUM case and neck it to 6.5 you will have an awsome round. you can use a Redding type S full length bushing die in 7mmSAUM and use a smaler bushing for the 6.5 neck after forming. you could get a 260 rem competition neck die and ream it to make your cases and a 260 competition seater can be reamed to suit the cartridge to load your ammo. if you are using the Wyats mag box you will be good to go.

3 other options with a 3.1" mag are 6.5X55, 6.5X57, and 6.5-284.

Cheers Bill
Australia

We think alike - I and the gunsmith also started there, since it has less powder capacity than the WSM case... the only problem is that from my earlier estimates, it's still more powder than I'd like - it ends up with (according to base and shoulder capacities in Load From a Disk's demo -waiting on the full program now) even greater usable capacity than the 6.5x.284... .0264in3 vs .0251in3 for the 6.5x.284.

I'm hoping to end up around 6 gr or so less powder than the 6.5x.284 so as have the barrel last longer, etc. The other concern was the dwindling availability of brass for the SAUM I've been hearing about. I most definitely like the ideas on the dies by the way, very clever and practical thoughts!

 

[MagnumManiac]

Sorry Steve, I have to admit to already having been diagnosed with the 6.5 terminal ailment. It's incurable. And anyway, where would the fun be in that?

Plus I've had truly gut-wrenching experiences hunting with the 7mm-08 on a couple deer in the past. It's very anecdotal, I know, but for me I got very serious non-expansion at 20 to 75 yards with my prior factory 7mm-08, and have experienced absolutely no problems at all with the .260 I had in 10 animals since, all 1 shot, extremely quick kills between 12 and around 250 yards. I'd still go with a .260, but I'm really, really hoping for around 100 fps more velocity and better cartridge OAL length for use in my short action than the .260 gave me with long 140s. With the .260 I was limited to 125 Nosler Partition bullets if I didn't want to significantly encroach on the powder space .

It's not the cartridge or the caliber of a rifle that determines bullet performance , it's the BULLET.If you are condemning a cartridge because of bullet performance , then you've been using the WRONG bullet.A bullet that fails to expand at short range on light skinned game is either too HEAVY , or too TOUGHLY BUILT.
You don't mention what that 7mm bullet was that failed to expand , but I bet it was heavier than 150 grs.(Failsafe perhaps)
You need to match the BULLET to the game you're hunting , not the CALIBRE.
It doesn't matter WHAT you hit 'em with , but WHERE you hit 'em , and the RIGHT bullet style you use.
The cartridge you need for this is the 260 AI if you want higher velocity , but you won't get 100fps more than the standard 260 , maybe only a 50fps increase.
If you want more hitting power , you need to go up in calibre , which would be 277 or 7mm.Either 270-08 or 7-08 would fit your rifle , without problems , but you're gonna have to make up your mind pretty quick.
MagnumManiac
gun)

 

[WindTrax]

It's not the cartridge or the caliber of a rifle that determines bullet performance , it's the BULLET.If you are condemning a cartridge because of bullet performance , then you've been using the WRONG bullet.A bullet that fails to expand at short range on light skinned game is either too HEAVY , or too TOUGHLY BUILT.
You don't mention what that 7mm bullet was that failed to expand , but I bet it was heavier than 150 grs.(Failsafe perhaps)
You need to match the BULLET to the game you're hunting , not the CALIBRE.
It doesn't matter WHAT you hit 'em with , but WHERE you hit 'em , and the RIGHT bullet style you use.
The cartridge you need for this is the 260 AI if you want higher velocity , but you won't get 100fps more than the standard 260 , maybe only a 50fps increase.
If you want more hitting power , you need to go up in calibre , which would be 277 or 7mm.Either 270-08 or 7-08 would fit your rifle , without problems , but you're gonna have to make up your mind pretty quick.
MagnumManiac
gun)

MagnumManiac - calm down! I've been doing this stuff a while too. Hey, completely get it's about the bullet construction. You are entirely wrong on the bullet weight. I was using a 130-grain Barnes X on the first deer, and a mere 120-grain Barnes X on the second (went to the lighter to try and get better velocity and expansion in fact, not for accuracy), both loaded to max velocity by the way. And both deer were shot at less than 75 yards. I would certainly not choose a 150 gr failsafe out of a 7mm-08 unless I was hoping for near-solids performance. I fully agree it's about bullet construction, intended design velocity envelope, terminal velocity and the like. The reason, my friend that I point at the caliber is if you were a bullet manufacturer wanting to construct a bullet for 7mms, with the 7mm Mag being a very big favorite amongst big game hunters, and wanting avoid the potential crashing of your reputation if you're bullets blew up on contact under some circumstances, would you build your jackets/bullets to expand at an envelope primarily centered around the 7mm-08 velocities? Or would you ensure that you built a bullet that wouldn't go to pieces on an elks shoulder at ranges as close as 20 yards with a 7mm Rem Magnum? I'm guessing that indeed it was the bullet construction - but I suspect that all bullet manufacturers have to pick their target velocity envelope, as well as ensuring that the bullet won't blow up for users with the most popular cartridges in that caliber range. After seeing 2 deer suffer needlessly given well-placed shots at close range, at max 7mm-08 velocities, I wasn't going to risk that bet again and went to .263. I also - until recently - refused to buy the Barnes X bullets for game; I don't think it's without coincidence my friend that the latest Barnes offerings boast of a redesigned nose cavity that promotes "faster expansion." Just thought I'd clear the air on the reasoning behind my earlier comments. That being said, others have had great luck with the 7mm-08, I'm sure. I just didn't. Completely agree though, it's the bullet construction, combined with velocity/expansion and placement that kills animals. These were (each) 2 lung shots, not gut shots, then 2 through the neck (in both cases, my fault as I was flustered they were still standing and missed the spine on the first shot.) 2 different years, 2 different bullet weights.
My only real disagreement with what you stated so emphatically is that it does indeed matter what caliber you hit them with. All other things being equal, a properly designed bullet, placed accurately, operating within its target velocity envelope, of a larger caliber is going to wreak more damage than a smaller one. That being said it does not take much to kill about anything in North America if you put all of those things together. Ackley was part of a culling operation for zebra in yesteryears with a high velocity, fast twist 22 with very high SD bullets and said it killed them like the hammer of Thor. In any case I don't think I need to move up in cartridge size Mm, this .260 has killed 10 head of big game in a row with 1 shot, including black bear, cougar, deer and also a bobcat at 12 paces. None told me that I needed a bigger caliber gun afterwards. A taxidermist friend of mine has cleanly taken eland (up to around 2000 pounds) a number of times apparently with a .243, good bullets and a single shot with good placement. A guy has to know he will stay within responsible limits and only take just the right shot with a marginal round, but that being said, the Swedes have killed moose for around a hundred years with the 6.5x55. What's not to like.

 

[dwm]

deleted

 

[FlinchedAgain]

Hi Scott, Gee it sounds like youre setting you're self up for a major headache.
Ive got a standard Tikka t3 lite 7mm08 that pushes a 140gn Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2850 fps with 22 inch barrel and groups .75 inch at 100yds, The last deer I shot with it was a 12 point red at 280yds the bullet was found perfectly mushroomed just under the skin on the opposite side of the shoulder, so I cant fault the performance, The 150gn Nosler BT as I understand it was designed with 7mm Rem Mag Velocities so they may not expand as well.
Im not sure what species you will be hunting but I would not consider the 7mm08 a suitable calibre for Africa by any stretch of the imagination.
Personaly I would not consider taking any wildcat cartridge, I wouldnt want to be within earshot of you when you discover that your ammo has been ''misplaced'' along the way, so if I were you I would use a calibre which has ammo readily available anywhere.
Why go for a custom built rifle on this trip, even If all goes to plan and its finished on time I feel that you will still be using a rifle that you are largely unfamiliar with.
You would have a lot more options if you didnt restrict youself to a short action.

What gun would I take? Well for a variety of smaller game then it would be a 3006 on a Brno 601 action, I Know it sounds a little boring especially for this site, But hey are you going over there to shoot stuff or just to show someone your gun.

Sorry if this sounds rather negative, but its just my humble opinion, and yes I do wish I was going with you.

 

[RossN]

I have a 23" 260 that I use for bush hunting where the longest shot would be 300 yards. That uses Norma 139g Vulkan projectiles, 46g of N160, Fed 210 primers and 308 Lapua cases for 2840 fps.
This load is above the book max, but has no pressure signs in my rifle, shoots 3/4" and works well on red deer and sika.
Unfortunately Norma have stopped making these projectiles but my point was more that 2800 fps is doable in a 260.
It is probably a bit low tech, but for years my load for that rifle was 44.4g AR2208 (Varget) behind a Hornady 129 interlock, 2920 fps and my longest shot on deer was 465 yards. I used this load for long range rabbits as well, it shot about 3/8 - 1/2 moa. I expect the 140 hornady would be a shooter, and have a slightly higher b.c., .465 vs .445. The SST's had better B.C., but were too long to feed from my magazine and get close to the lands.
When I was living in Namabia I shot a Kudu with a 30.30, and saw them go down to all manner of rubbish- its how well you use it, not the size of your cracker that counts.....
What about a 162g Amax out of a 7-08? Plenty of B.C., LOTS of expansion.

Regards

Ross