Mass Shootings - Why?

[JimFromTN]

You want honesty?......in generations past......high school kids hung their deer rifles in the rear window rack & drove to school, left them there all day with no incident, some even showed them to their teachers & classmates.
The answer lies in the difference between that generation & this one.
All you have to do is look at the headlines, what is being taught in schools & universities now days, its like night & day.....only today they are calling what is black, white & good is now called evil.
I
It as it was in the days of Noah.

Thats not entirely true.

History of School Shootings in the United States | K12 Academics

1700s The earliest known United States shooting to happen on school property was the Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre on July 26, 1764, where four Lenape American Indian entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed...

www.k12academics.com

 

[Orange Dust]

I will kick the hornets nest again. Are you saying we were less free 20 years ago when AR's weren't so cheap, available, and popular?

Why the hate for AR's. Back in the day the cheap gun was an M1 Carbine. 20rd mags and would have been just as or more effective for this purpose. Didn't happen though. Folks using dogs all put 10rd mags on Rem 742's and 760's. Back in the early 80's you could buy a REAL M16 for $700 including the transfer tax. AR's are being used more simply because there are more of them. They are the most popular rifle in the US. The reason for the popularity is modularity not lethality. Great platform for learning to shoot a centerfire, and arguably the best platform for hogs and coyotes. The tool is irrelevant. It is the person responsible for using it. If not an AR, some other weapon. If the bad guy has an hour (and this one did) he could have killed just as many folks with a ball peen hammer if he wanted to. Forget about the tool and concentrate on how to create less bad guys in the first place, and for plan B take them out Quickly, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

 

[jessej]

In 1907, our great grandparents purchased Winchester semi automatic rifles from the Sears catalog and was delivered by the us postal service. For 40 years Civilians had these rifles (400k of them ) while our military still used the bolt gun. Up until WW2.

I do believe people were better back then.

 

[jessej]

If the bad guy has an hour (and this one did) he could have killed just as many folks with a ball peen hammer if he wanted to.

Can you imagine the carnage if some whack job decided pump gun with buckshot.
I wonder how the media would react

 

[Orange Dust]

In 1907, our great grandparents purchased Winchester automatic rifles from the Sears catalog and was delivered by the us postal service. For 40 years Civilians had these rifles (400k of them ) while our military still used the bolt gun. Up until WW2.

I do believe people were better back then.

People had more respect for both their fellow man and his property. There were still bad guys. They were fewer in numbers. Folks had to work or they did not eat unless a Church or Non Profit fed them. The Government did not give away Tax Payer dollars to them. Prison was a bad place you did not even want to visit. Laws were simple that everyone understood. Break them and you were punished, not housed. Life was actually harder then, but it did build character.

 

[Orange Dust]

Can you imagine the carnage if some whack job decided pump gun with buckshot.
I wonder how the media would react

Don't give then any ideas.....

 

[JimFromTN]

Why the hate for AR's. Back in the day the cheap gun was an M1 Carbine. 20rd mags and would have been just as or more effective for this purpose. Didn't happen though. Folks using dogs all put 10rd mags on Rem 742's and 760's. Back in the early 80's you could buy a REAL M16 for $700 including the transfer tax. AR's are being used more simply because there are more of them. They are the most popular rifle in the US. The reason for the popularity is modularity not lethality. Great platform for learning to shoot a centerfire, and arguably the best platform for hogs and coyotes. The tool is irrelevant. It is the person responsible for using it. If not an AR, some other weapon. If the bad guy has an hour (and this one did) he could have killed just as many folks with a ball peen hammer if he wanted to. Forget about the tool and concentrate on how to create less bad guys in the first place, and for plan B take them out Quickly, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

I don't hate Ar15's. I have 2 of them. I got one from an estate sale of a friend. It was one of the first ever sold in Nashville. Back in the 70's, as soon as my friend saw an advertisement for the new AR15, he ran down to the local gun shop and put in an order. It is a colt. It would be worth allot of money had he not customized it to his own liking.

Growing up, m1 carbines had already become way too expensive. Back in the 90's it was AKs. You could go to a gun show and get a norinko sporterized AK with the thumbhole stock and 5 rnd mags for $300 at one table, buy a stock set for $35 at the next table, buy 30rd east german mags for $7 at the next table, and buy 1000 rds of chinese 7.62x39 for $150 at the next table. All it was missing is a threaded barrel and a bayonet lug which I did not care about. I know because I did it.

Here is an interesting article. Its an interview with Ryan Busse, who served for 25 years as vice president of sales for weapons manufacturer Kimber.

Opinion | How the AR-15 conquered America, as revealed by an industry insider - The Washington Post

Here is a couple of things he says in the interview that I found interesting which actually goes into what some people on here are saying is the cause of this.

"Twenty years ago, everybody believed the industry was dying. Every marketing person in the industry looked around with some worry about how to reach new market shares."

"Probably in the mid-to-late 2000s, you start to see the rise of first-person shooter games, following the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
There was lots of discussion in marketing-planning meetings about how you could get your gun model placed in a movie or a video game. That represented a solution to the problem, which was: How do we attract a new market segment away from this graying, older market segment that's not growing? There was a young demographic associated with first-person video games and action movies."

 

[Orange Dust]

I don't hate Ar15's. I have 2 of them. I got one from an estate sale of a friend. It was one of the first ever sold in Nashville. Back in the 70's, as soon as my friend saw an advertisement for the new AR15, he ran down to the local gun shop and put in an order. It is a colt. It would be worth allot of money had he not customized it to his own liking.

Growing up, m1 carbines had already become way too expensive. Back in the 90's it was AKs. You could go to a gun show and get a norinko sporterized AK with the thumbhole stock and 5 rnd mags for $300 at one table, buy a stock set for $35 at the next table, buy 30rd east german mags for $7 at the next table, and buy 1000 rds of chinese 7.62x39 for $150 at the next table. All it was missing is a threaded barrel and a bayonet lug which I did not care about. I know because I did it.

Here is an interesting article. Its an interview with Ryan Busse, who served for 25 years as vice president of sales for weapons manufacturer Kimber.

Opinion | How the AR-15 conquered America, as revealed by an industry insider - The Washington Post

Here is a couple of things he says in the interview that I found interesting which actually goes into what some people on here are saying is the cause of this.

"Twenty years ago, everybody believed the industry was dying. Every marketing person in the industry looked around with some worry about how to reach new market shares."

"Probably in the mid-to-late 2000s, you start to see the rise of first-person shooter games, following the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
There was lots of discussion in marketing-planning meetings about how you could get your gun model placed in a movie or a video game. That represented a solution to the problem, which was: How do we attract a new market segment away from this graying, older market segment that's not growing? There was a young demographic associated with first-person video games and action movies."

I remember when you could go to a gun show and buy a crate of SKS's for $300 and a crate of AK's for $400. Not a gun, a crate full of them. They would haggle off that. No one but hog hunters would buy them. They were considered inaccurate, short range guns. So were AR's, although they were nicer. Sure wish I had bought a few crates of them back then. But I was into Auto Mags, Match guns, and Weatherby's. As for the Article, I wouldn't believe anything written in the Washington Post, total Propaganda. In fact, the old "Don't believe anything you hear and half the stuff you see" is about right these days no matter the source. Everyone on both sides has an agenda, and their only truth is money and power.

 

[jessej]

and their only truth is money and power.

 

[LkeAF]

View attachment 369278

I knew you'd come through

 

[2buffalo]

My Karelian Bear Dog is the runt of the litter; he is no dud and the best dog I ever had in 6 decades. I raised him from 7 weeks old (he will be 13 YO in Oct) and provided him with all the love and human parenting he deserves. He turned out better than I had hoped. My sons (USAF and USMC) accused me of training my dog as I raised them. I asked, "what's wrong with that?" I took their silence as a compliment. L L!

Had to look that one up. Nice looking dogs.

 

[LRNut]

There are a lot of emerging facts coming out & more will come......The guns were bought legally period. Red flag laws would not have prevented this horrible crime. Extensive background checks would not have prevented it either..... The total fault lies at the shooters feet.....no one else.

I probably should not wade in, but oh well...

The fault does lie at the shooter's feet. But we cannot prevent every lunatic from shooting up schools unless we make it more difficult to do so. One way would be to raise the gun buying age to 21 for semiautomatic rifles. Another would be to make ARs and other semi-automatic rifles (perhaps excepting specific models such as the Browning BAR) Class III weapons under the NFA of 1934 but grandfather current owners. Every time I go to the Phoenix range these days I see multiple rifles with suppressors. Many LRH members have them, so it cannot be that difficult. And finally, we should ban shooter games - the "science" would say there is a strong correlation to these and mass killings.

Arming more people is not what the majority of the people in this country want. Most teachers do not want to carry weapons.

You can talk all day long about lack of parenting, etc. but too many families, many of whom own guns, are afraid it is only a matter of time before their child is killed. My SIL is a school teacher. I own an AR. I don't think making them Class III is too high of a price to pay if stops these killings. Sure, you can say lunatics will find other ways to kill kids, but I am willing to bet anyone here a lot of money that the frequency of mass killings would decline. But even if it didn't, it would force society to come to terms to with the problem. No other country has the number of mass shootings that we do in the US. It is simply too easy for a lunatic to walk into a gun store, buy an AR, and shoot up a school, movie theater, or some other complex.

Anyone who believes the government is behind this probably thinks the government was behind 911. Get real. You sound ridiculous and make us look like a bunch of idiots.

We can offer solutions ourselves or we can wait until enough people do it for us. We know the cries to ban ARs grows louder with every school shooting. At some point, this will happen. Doing something now will ensure we can all shoot LR in the future.

Ok, I am ready for the pounding...

 

[Orange Dust]

I probably should not wade in, but oh well...

The fault does lie at the shooter's feet. But we cannot prevent every lunatic from shooting up schools unless we make it more difficult to do so. One way would be to raise the gun buying age to 21 for semiautomatic rifles. Another would be to make ARs and other semi-automatic rifles (perhaps excepting specific models such as the Browning BAR) Class III weapons under the NFA of 1934 but grandfather current owners. Every time I go to the Phoenix range these days I see multiple rifles with suppressors. Many LRH members have them, so it cannot be that difficult. And finally, we should ban shooter games - the "science" would say there is a strong correlation to these and mass killings.

Arming more people is not what the majority of the people in this country want. Most teachers do not want to carry weapons.

You can talk all day long about lack of parenting, etc. but too many families, many of whom own guns, are afraid it is only a matter of time before their child is killed. My SIL is a school teacher. I own an AR. I don't think making them Class III is too high of a price to pay if stops these killings. Sure, you can say lunatics will find other ways to kill kids, but I am willing to bet anyone here a lot of money that the frequency of mass killings would decline. But even if it didn't, it would force society to come to terms to with the problem. No other country has the number of mass shootings that we do in the US. It is simply too easy for a lunatic to walk into a gun store, buy an AR, and shoot up a school, movie theater, or some other complex.

Anyone who believes the government is behind this probably thinks the government was behind 911. Get real. You sound ridiculous and make us look like a bunch of idiots.

We can offer solutions ourselves or we can wait until enough people do it for us. We know the cries to ban ARs grows louder with every school shooting. At some point, this will happen. Doing something now will ensure we can all shoot LR in the future.

Ok, I am ready for the pounding...

I don't have an issue with making them Class III, as long as they can be converted to assault rifles (Selective Fire). Otherwise they are simply semi auto sporting rifles, just like a Browning BAR. Just uglier.

 

[JimFromTN]

I remember when you could go to a gun show and buy a crate of SKS's for $300 and a crate of AK's for $400. Not a gun, a crate full of them. They would haggle off that. No one but hog hunters would buy them. They were considered inaccurate, short range guns. So were AR's, although they were nicer. Sure wish I had bought a few crates of them back then. But I was into Auto Mags, Match guns, and Weatherby's. As for the Article, I wouldn't believe anything written in the Washington Post, total Propaganda. In fact, the old "Don't believe anything you hear and half the stuff you see" is about right these days no matter the source. Everyone on both sides has an agenda, and their only truth is money and power.

I have never seen a crate of AKs that cheap but I have often thought that buying a crate of sks's would have been a good investment.

As for the article, the person being interviewed was the vice president of marketing for kimber for 28 years. He became a turncoat on the industry and Kimber understandably distanced themselves from him. It does not mean that he is lying about the industry targeting young people by paying to get their guns into video games and movies. That claim about the industry is not new. It was part of the sandy hook lawsuit against remington. They claimed that remington targeted young people by product placement in video games. It is far more believable than all of the conspiracy theories about this. Its no different than when the tobacco industry targeted young people.