LRH and "The Rangefinder Revolution"

[Litehiker]

We must admit that long range hunting has largely become possible because of good laser range finders. And some could add that good ballistic engines are also part of this revolution. No argument here.

But without laser rangefinders we would be reduced to using our MilDotMaster slide rules and reticle sub tensions v.s known heights at distance. That would be s - l - o - w and less accurate.
With the advent of laser rangefinders inside scopes we can now range and shoot even faster. I think in the near future we will see this technology appear in higher quality military rifle scopes. Tech marches on, ever faster.

For hunting I prefer the simplicity of range finding 10X binoculars with a built in menu of cartridges to give me a mil hold readout. Yeah, I know that "library" of cartridge ballistics is ballpark but I have range tested it and know where it is a bit off. That range testing, even with the precision of your muzzle velocity integrated with say, Applied Ballistics' engine, must be range tested in your rifle and with your hunting ammo.

So here are my LRH suggestions:
1. a good laser rangefinder
2. good ballistic engine that accepts your muzzle velocity (Buy or borrow a chronometer)
3. range testing the ballistic engine results
4. Practice, practice, practice over various distances, altitudes and/or temperatures using your laser rangefinder to get used to doing it. (The beauty of my club's steel range is that it is set up in meters so that the first hen is 212 yards and going further out adds odd yards to the targets, making using a rangefinder more realistic.)
5. a good scope of 18X or more with MOA or mil hash mark subtensions (And, I'd add, a G3 or similar "small" Xmas tree reticle for wind holds.)

OK, so some hunters don't like the "complicated" Xmas tree reticles. To them I say you need to try the "small" Xmas tree reticles like the G3 that are much less complicated than, for example, my H59 competition reticle. Using reticle hashmark holds instead of dialing is just as accurate and faster than dialing. Plus they give you an EXACT place to hold for wind.

Eric B.

 

[Bigdog425]

Recommendations and comparisons?

 

[yobuck]

Well, having been involved with very succesful long range hunting/hunters long before lazer rangefinders and a few other have to have things on your list, i disagree with everything you said except the shooting part.
And as for that, not as much is needed as some would like you to believe.
Anyway what makes you think we didnt have excellent rangefinders before lazers showed up?
Fact is that thanks to the military we have had very good ones since WW1.
Dont ever bet anything you dont want to lose on that subject.

 

[orkan]

2 year old thread.

My answer is Vector 23 and a genIIXR reticle.

 

[Litehiker]

orkan,
Good system! The Vector is professional grade.

Hunting means shooting at animals that don't hold still for very long.
Therefore the usefulness for a good laser rangefinder where distances can be quickly and very accurately measured.
Then the use of an Xmas tree reticle, especially for wind holds. (You know, that pesky wind that messes with your shots.) Dialing turrets while hunting takes time - which the wild game may not give you.

Yep, good to know how to estimate distances using your reticle only if rangefinders go t!ts up, so remember to practice with that system too.

 

[HARPERC]

Fact is that thanks to the military we have had very good ones since WW1.

From a practical hunting standpoint I'm not sure what the military had is applicable to most of us.

I think it was Lilja using one from a Japanese battleship, not particularly mobile.

Threads 2 years old, the technology continues to bundle, morph.

 

[yobuck]

Well the ones ive owed, including the one i still own weighs less than 15#, not counting the tripod.
Conditions dont matter so long as you can see the target.
You can bet that Lilja had one of those as well, because people he knew had them.
Basicly, very little has changed that actually (improves the odds ) for those hunters who hunt from fixed locations, like all long range is done in PA.
Actually we were killing more deer 40/50 years ago than those hunting the same areas are killing today.
And you can also let me know what cartridge is an actual improvement over a 30x378 or a 7x300 Wby. for the vast majority of long range hunting shots.
So while the thread might be old, fact is nothing has changed,
other than change itself.
We do now have the ability to mount cheap scopes properly though,
and we can all thank god for that. lol

 

[Greyfox]

Prior to owning a decent RF, I used Mildots to range game quite successfully to 500 or 600 yards. Flat shooting/high velocity cartridges reduced the inherent error in using this method. The next level, or enabler for me came about with the early lazer RFs combined with the use of ballistic calculators to determine drops. The early Leica RF's and the Geovid worked well enough to double my hunting range to 1000 with my first 998 yard shot on a whitetail. This was a milestone for me. I will say that ranging at those distances was often difficult with multiple attempts necessary to confirm accurate ranges. The ultimate progression came with the acquisition of a Gunwerks G7 Ballistic RF. With some fine tuning, the speed and precision of acquiring and accurate dope made a material difference for me. Since the acquisition of that G7 RF, others have followed, each having its own attributes, but for my typical 1000 yards(as far as 1200 yards) hunting, the technology has pretty much stabilized. I will say that a recent acquisition of the Revic BR4, IMO, is a highly refined Ballistic RF that trumps the speed of acquiring ranges, precision, and simplicity of operation of all the RF's I've owned and used thus far. As to shooting process, unlike my practices in competition(PRS), I have always,and will likely continue to dial for elevation, and use my reticle for windage corrections.. For me, this makes observing bullet impact and game reaction easier and more certain.

 

[yobuck]

Prior to owning a decent RF, I used Mildots to range game quite successfully to 500 or 600 yards. Flat shooting/high velocity cartridges reduced the inherent error in using this method. The next level, or enabler for me came about with the early lazer RFs combined with the use of ballistic calculators to determine drops. The early Leica RF's and the Geovid worked well enough to double my hunting range to 1000 with my first 998 yard shot on a whitetail. This was a milestone for me. I will say that ranging at those distances was often difficult with multiple attempts necessary to confirm accurate ranges. The ultimate progression came with the acquisition of a Gunwerks G7 Ballistic RF. With some fine tuning, the speed and precision of acquiring and accurate dope made a material difference for me. Since the acquisition of that G7 RF, others have followed, each having its own attributes, but for my typical 1000 yards(as far as 1200 yards) hunting, the technology has pretty much stabilized. I will say that a recent acquisition of the Revic BR4, IMO, is a highly refined Ballistic RF that trumps the speed of acquiring ranges, precision, and simplicity of operation of all the RF's I've owned and used thus far. As to shooting process, unlike my practices in competition(PRS), I have always,and will likely continue to dial for elevation, and use my reticle for windage corrections.. For me, this makes observing bullet impact and game reaction easier and more certain.

Well with all due respect to an old experienced shooter/hunter,
this post is a perfect one (in my opinion) to challenge.
Not that i disagree with the ranging, or how the poster goes about the shooting.
But i do challenge the (observing impact and game reaction) comment.
First off, anytime a hunter decides he is going to be taking long
shots at animals, especially those beyond 500 yards, there needs to be an observer/spotter using very good optics for observing bullet impacts and hits on the animal. It just isnt possible for the shooter to (always) be certain as to where the shot went, especially under so called (field conditions).
As for observing wether an animal has been hit, thats even more criticle, as there is no way to know for sure what it might do or how it might react after being hit, regardless what it got hit with.
So reality is that were dealing with more than one subject where shooting at animals is involved.
And beyond that, not all animals react the same after the first round is fired.
An antelope for example is apt to be off to the next county with the first shot. Whereas a whitetail might sniff the ground where the bullet hit and allow you to shoot many more in his direction. Unless its been hit, then you wont know untill you know what it might do or did do.
Fact is that hunters hunting whitetails from a fixed location,
especially if they hunt the same locations year after year as many do, can get by very well without any rangefinder at all.
Am i advising they do that? No, i am not, as having one will make things a bit easier. But the end result wont necessarily be any better either. You will be apt to take one range, before the shot, after that especially with a moving animal there wont be any more ranging. Thats simply reality.
The vast majority of animal shots taken at long range anywhere in this country are going to be under 1000 yds.
And most of those will be under 800 yards.
How precise does your data have to be for a kill zone shot on an animal under 800 yds anyway?
Does your field conditions shooting position play any roll on how well the data works?

 

[orkan]

It just isnt possible for the shooter to (always) be certain as to where the shot went, especially under so called (field conditions).

Since you're in the mood for challenging, allow me to challenge back...

Almost universally, I am better at spotting my own shots than a spotter would be. The level of optic I use and my ability to drive a rifle dictates this to be so. After all, there I am right behind the bullet. Secondly, almost never do I have someone else next to me when I'm taking a big game animal.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[Greyfox]

Well with all due respect to an old experienced shooter/hunter,
this post is a perfect one (in my opinion) to challenge.
Not that i disagree with the ranging, or how the poster goes about the shooting.
But i do challenge the (observing impact and game reaction) comment.
First off, anytime a hunter decides he is going to be taking long
shots at animals, especially those beyond 500 yards, there needs to be an observer/spotter using very good optics for observing bullet impacts and hits on the animal. It just isnt possible for the shooter to (always) be certain as to where the shot went, especially under so called (field conditions).
As for observing wether an animal has been hit, thats even more criticle, as there is no way to know for sure what it might do or how it might react after being hit, regardless what it got hit with.
So reality is that were dealing with more than one subject where shooting at animals is involved.
And beyond that, not all animals react the same after the first round is fired.
An antelope for example is apt to be off to the next county with the first shot. Whereas a whitetail might sniff the ground where the bullet hit and allow you to shoot many more in his direction. Unless its been hit, then you wont know untill you know what it might do or did do.
Fact is that hunters hunting whitetails from a fixed location,
especially if they hunt the same locations year after year as many do, can get by very well without any rangefinder at all.
Am i advising they do that? No, i am not, as having one will make things a bit easier. But the end result wont necessarily be any better either. You will be apt to take one range, before the shot, after that especially with a moving animal there wont be any more ranging. Thats simply reality.
The vast majority of animal shots taken at long range anywhere in this country are going to be under 1000 yds.
And most of those will be under 800 yards.
How precise does your data have to be for a kill zone shot on an animal under 800 yds anyway?
Does your field conditions shooting position play any roll on how well the data works?

We are pretty much in agreement with many aspects of your post, particularly your comment about me being "old". Kidding aside, there are factors you challenge that are surely determinants as to whether or not I will take a particular shot at long range, I would estimate that for every game animal I have shot at long range, I have passed on 2-3 due to uncertain/unreadable conditions. This was more often then not, wind, but an unstable shooting position, poor/uncertain ranging conditions, or game movement and/or multiple animals interfering with a shot were also reasons. With experience, one develops an ability to "feel" whether you have a sound shot, or need to pass or change the approach if possible. This is the intriguing aspect of LRH…You are always learning, and you try to get better over time at managing the shot. As to the use of a spotter. Terrain, and the visual expanse tends to dictate the importance of a spotter for me. I have used a spotter for many of my long shots, I find the greatest value of a spotter is in helping to access the many factors leading up to the shot. At the shot, I have often had the same, and in a few cases a better visual of the shot, and the games reaction then my spotter. At the shot, you have "total" concentration on that animal and with experience you can see the hit, and the reaction of the animal. IMO, this aspect makes a strong case for a good scope/glass, as well as rifle/recoil control. I don't wish to oversimplify shooting game at long range. You have a brief period of time to manage a myriad of factors. Experience, practice, and testing is very important, as is your choice of equipment. Coming full circle in the topic of RF's, while all the skills and equipment are important, I'll reinforce that a good ballistic rangefinder really moved the needle for my long range hunting success over the years. If you can't get a good range/dope, you can't shoot…Game over!

 

[yobuck]

We are pretty much in agreement with many aspects of your post, particularly your comment about me being "old". Kidding aside, there are factors you challenge that are surely determinants as to whether or not I will take a particular shot at long range, I would estimate that for every game animal I have shot at long range, I have passed on 2-3 due to uncertain/unreadable conditions. This was more often then not, wind, but an unstable shooting position, poor/uncertain ranging conditions, or game movement and/or multiple animals interfering with a shot were also reasons. With experience, one develops an ability to "feel" whether you have a sound shot, or need to pass or change the approach if possible. This is the intriguing aspect of LRH…You are always learning, and you try to get better over time at managing the shot. As to the use of a spotter. Terrain, and the visual expanse tends to dictate the importance of a spotter for me. I have used a spotter for many of my long shots, I find the greatest value of a spotter is in helping to access the many factors leading up to the shot. At the shot, I have often had the same, and in a few cases a better visual of the shot, and the games reaction then my spotter. At the shot, you have "total" concentration on that animal and with experience you can see the hit, and the reaction of the animal. IMO, this aspect makes a strong case for a good scope/glass, as well as rifle/recoil control. I don't wish to oversimplify shooting game at long range. You have a brief period of time to manage a myriad of factors. Experience, practice, and testing is very important, as is your choice of equipment. Coming full circle in the topic of RF's, while all the skills and equipment are important, I'll reinforce that a good ballistic rangefinder really moved the needle for my long range hunting success over the years. If you can't get a good range/dope, you can't shoot…Game over!

Well type of terrain will of coarse play a large roll as to how successful you might be in seeing your own hits.
Prairie dog hunting and other types in open terrain hunting would be a prime example of that.
However when hunting in tree covered areas like all the steep sidehills in NC PA. are, your bullet might not even reach the target due to tree limbs. Therefore a shooter who is always concentrating on the target, would have no clue as to what just happened. And thats just one example.
Low growing brush like laurel and various low growing bushes which are plentifull, are all capable of concealing where a bullet lands.
And guess what else will conceal a hit? How about the thing every LR hunter prays for, snow. A couple of inches is a god send for finding animals, and hits will as a rule not be affected by it. But make that amount of snow 6" or more and it can make bullets hits very hard to see even for a spotter.
Following the trail of the bullet wont give precise information as to the actual hit location unless the distance is pretty close,
but it will give information as to what area it will hit for someone who is following that in their glasses.
A shooter probably wont be seeing any of that, at least at the longer distances, and most shooters wont be seeing it at all regardless of distance.
Even a spotter can easily miss seeing that if he blinks or isnt concentrating when the shot goes off, because thats how quick the whole thing happens. And of coarse wind can dissipate that as well.
Mind you now some of the most successful hunters ive known preferred hunting alone.
But they had limits of five to six hundred yards as a max.
And for that distance with the guns they used they didnt even need a rangefinder.
My suggestion would be to go to a good place with various distance opportunities.
Pick out some targets like say a rock, a certain tree, etc. write the information down in some type of book for future reference. If you got the information by actually shooting at the target due to not having a rangefinder, write the click information down.
Next time you go there send a few rounds and see if the data has changed.
10 years later check again just to see if the rocks have moved.
If you have some good reference points scattered around on the spots you regularly hunt, your going to be in good shape as far as your distance data is concerned. It can be very helpfull even if you do have a rangefinder, as you wont even need it much of the time.
Mind you now im not talking about extreme distances. Certainly that adds another dimension to it, and would be all the more reason for having a spotter.
There is yet one more very good reason which is never discussed.
All we tend to discuss are the things that make us feel good about ourselves for the most part.
How many of you have been watching over an area for awhile and have located a few doe way over there near that point.
Awhile later you check back there and find those doe very alert and looking toward that point. A bit later, here he comes around that point with just one thing on his mind.
I will fast foreward to the part where you know you only have little time to get a shot off before those doe take that buck over the top and gone.
There has been alot of mixing it up, running around etc. with those animals. As any who have experienced that type situation would know.
Point is, are you absolutely certain your on the correct animal when you decide its now or never as for a shot?
If you think that cant happen, your living in dreamland.
There just cant be a better argument as for having a spotter when long range hunting.

.
.

 

[Litehiker]

ORKAN, my sentiments precisely.
In an ideal hunting world I would have my gun bearer/spotter with me.
As it stands I always hunt alone - ALWAYS.
Therefore I use my LRF binoculars and data card inside my Vortex scope caps AND a G3 small "Xmas tree" reticle to aid in exact elevation and "pretty close" windage estimation. No holding "out in space" with that reticle but instead an exact reticle hash mark. As well, no precious time spent dialing.
Finally my G3 reticle is illuminated for situations with dark backgrounds or very cloudy days.

If you question the quality of my lens cap data card let me say:
1.) I use my Magnetospeed V3 chronometer
2.) I always use the same Hornady ELD-X ammo
3.) I generate my data card with the HORNADY 4DOF ballistic engine, the most accurate known ballistic engine because it uses Doppler radar for measuring bullet BCs at many points on its trajectory instead of using G1 or G7 computer calculated "averaged" data.
4.) I do practice and compete in long range (to 1,100 yards) competition here in the 'Vegas area so a 500 yard shot is medium, not "long" for me. Practice is very important in knowing your abilities/limitations and improving skills.