Hexagonal Boron Nitride
- Thread starter RockyMtnMT
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idaho elk hunter,
bulletcoatings.com is currently supplying 2lb of new jewelry mix steel tumbling media with their Bullet Tumbling Boron Nitride (hBN) Powder Kit.
https://www.bulletcoatings.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17527&cat=249&page=1
I recently shot this 4-shot group with HBN coated bullets which were coated using 1/8" stainless steel pellets and a vibratory tumbler. Shot from my Tikka T3 Lite, factory chambered in 7mm Rem Mag. The best prior 3-shot group fired from this rifle over the past 7yrs with the very same uncoated bullets and MV was around 0.7 inches/100yds. This 4 shot group printed about 1.25" at 280yds, equating to around 0.45 inches/100yds. Understand this is a lightweight rifle with sporter profile barrel.
It's possible that the bulletcoatings.com recommendations have changed over time? Either way, I'm not experiencing any significant negative affects on bullet accuracy from vibratory tumbling bullets with 1/8" stainless pellets.
A little additional information to share. I'm beginning to realize that there are rules of thumb but nothing hard and fast about pre-HBN and post-HBN coated bullets versus powder charges and MVs.
I MV tested a 30/375 SI pre and post-HBN coated bore and bullets. This is the 375 Ruger case blown to minimum case taper with a 40* shoulder, necked down to .308 caliber. There is one additional factor in the pre and post-HBN powder charges and MVs with this specific rifle. This barrel also received melonite treatment in between pre and post-HBN load and MV testing.
After looking at the RL33 load charges, temperatures, seating depths, and MVs collected before and after the barrel was melonited, I would say I gained about 50fps shooting the Berger 215gr Hybrid with an increase in powder charge from 87.6gr RL33 pre-HBN coated bullets, to 87.7gr RL33 after melonite treatment of the barrel with HBN coated bullets. So think about that. An increase of 0.1gr of RL33 resulting in an additional 50fps MV. This is not similar to the results I saw with my 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag, both shooting Berger VLDs.
After jamming the 215gr Berger Hybrids into the lands 0.012", I ended up with an ES of ~ 10fps. The rifle appears to be a tack driver, with this load. ES increased substantially as I seated these bullets to just toughing the lands, and with a 0.007" jump to the lands. RL33 is known to produce higher ES with any substantial bullet jump. In my rifle, I had to actually jam the bullets firm into the lands in order to get low ES.
One more piece of information to share. A forum member sent me a photo of the stainless steel tumbling media he purchased and used from bulletcoatings.com. It looked like gravel from a borrow pit. I would not advise using the stainless media from bulletcoatings.com, or any other jeweler's tumbling media consisting of a variety of odd shaped pieces of stainless media. This member stated he could see some deformation to his HBN coated bullets under a magnifying glass, and I have no doubt this mixture of jewelers tumbling media with sharper edges was the cause.
I've been using 1/8" diameter stainless pellets. The pellets are all smooth, uniform, ~1/8" diameter, round stainless pellets. I'm having good results with them. However I've been caused to think about the use of ANY tumbling media in vibratory tumblers and have decided that they shouldn't be necessary in order to effectively impact coat bullets with HBN. I say this because the only functional surface of the bullet that needs to be coated with HBN powder is the cylindrical bearing surface that contacts the bore. And the bullets themselves should adequately impact plate the long cylindrical bearing surface with HBN powder. That's the primary surface of the bullets that will be impacting one another when the bullets are vibratory tumbled in a plastic cylindrical container.
I think David Tubbs got this right. No tumbling media required... because I reviewed the David Tubbs video, and looked at his web site. I don't recall any mention of tumbling media in his demonstration video - simply bullets and HBN powder in his tumbling container. In addition, I don't recall tumbling media offered for sale on his web site. Anything that works for David Tubbs should also work well for the rest of us. The next batch of bullets I HBN coat will be vibratory tumbled without my 1/8" stainless pellets. I fully expect those bullets will impact plate the HBN powder on their bearing surfaces just fine - without the use of the stainless pellets or any other tumbling media.
I MV tested a 30/375 SI pre and post-HBN coated bore and bullets. This is the 375 Ruger case blown to minimum case taper with a 40* shoulder, necked down to .308 caliber. There is one additional factor in the pre and post-HBN powder charges and MVs with this specific rifle. This barrel also received melonite treatment in between pre and post-HBN load and MV testing.
After looking at the RL33 load charges, temperatures, seating depths, and MVs collected before and after the barrel was melonited, I would say I gained about 50fps shooting the Berger 215gr Hybrid with an increase in powder charge from 87.6gr RL33 pre-HBN coated bullets, to 87.7gr RL33 after melonite treatment of the barrel with HBN coated bullets. So think about that. An increase of 0.1gr of RL33 resulting in an additional 50fps MV. This is not similar to the results I saw with my 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag, both shooting Berger VLDs.
After jamming the 215gr Berger Hybrids into the lands 0.012", I ended up with an ES of ~ 10fps. The rifle appears to be a tack driver, with this load. ES increased substantially as I seated these bullets to just toughing the lands, and with a 0.007" jump to the lands. RL33 is known to produce higher ES with any substantial bullet jump. In my rifle, I had to actually jam the bullets firm into the lands in order to get low ES.
One more piece of information to share. A forum member sent me a photo of the stainless steel tumbling media he purchased and used from bulletcoatings.com. It looked like gravel from a borrow pit. I would not advise using the stainless media from bulletcoatings.com, or any other jeweler's tumbling media consisting of a variety of odd shaped pieces of stainless media. This member stated he could see some deformation to his HBN coated bullets under a magnifying glass, and I have no doubt this mixture of jewelers tumbling media with sharper edges was the cause.
I've been using 1/8" diameter stainless pellets. The pellets are all smooth, uniform, ~1/8" diameter, round stainless pellets. I'm having good results with them. However I've been caused to think about the use of ANY tumbling media in vibratory tumblers and have decided that they shouldn't be necessary in order to effectively impact coat bullets with HBN. I say this because the only functional surface of the bullet that needs to be coated with HBN powder is the cylindrical bearing surface that contacts the bore. And the bullets themselves should adequately impact plate the long cylindrical bearing surface with HBN powder. That's the primary surface of the bullets that will be impacting one another when the bullets are vibratory tumbled in a plastic cylindrical container.
I think David Tubbs got this right. No tumbling media required... because I reviewed the David Tubbs video, and looked at his web site. I don't recall any mention of tumbling media in his demonstration video - simply bullets and HBN powder in his tumbling container. In addition, I don't recall tumbling media offered for sale on his web site. Anything that works for David Tubbs should also work well for the rest of us. The next batch of bullets I HBN coat will be vibratory tumbled without my 1/8" stainless pellets. I fully expect those bullets will impact plate the HBN powder on their bearing surfaces just fine - without the use of the stainless pellets or any other tumbling media.
Last edited:
Broz
Well-Known Member
Paul, just wondered if this is correct or a type O ?
My instructions from Bullet coatings state " 1 teaspoon to 16 oz. " of 91% or higher denatured alcohol.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I used 1 1/2 teaspoons per 8 ounces of denatured alcohol. It wasn't too concentrated in my opinion. I read on one of the forums where a knowledgable experienced HBN'er was using 1 Tablespoon per 16 ounces of alcohol.
That guy had been miss-quoted once as using 1 teaspoon per 16 ounces of alcohol. So he came back in to correct this error, and clarified that he and his buddies were using 1 Tablespoon per 16 ounces.
FYI, 1 Tablespoon = 3 Teaspoons.
__________________________
I wouldn't be afraid to use a little higher concentration, based on my experiences. My 1 1/2 teaspoons per 8 fluid ounces isn't viscous at all. Like a very pale skim milk in appearance and similar viscosity to alcohol without any HBN. My mixture doesn't leave any abundunce of HBN on the bore after the alcohol evaporates, based on my visual inspection. (I don't own a bore scope. I'm just examining the bore at the muzzle with an led flashlight.)
I would also say this about HBN coating the bore. I don't think folks should conclude that swabbing the bore with an HBN/alcohol patch and firing a single bullet will produce a fully HBN coated bore. In my MV testing, it still takes several HBN coated bullets down the bore before the bore produces stable MVs. In my opinion, the HBN/alcohol swabbing of a squeaky clean bore helps avoid firing on a dry bore, and it may reduce the number of HBN coated bullets that will need to be fired down the bore to complete the HBN coating of the bore.
The primary means of coating the bore is the HBN bullets being fired down the bore, in my observations. I've treated and fired HBN coated bullets down 4 bores now, and I inspected the muzzle of the bore after the first shot on the freshly treated bore, and then after several more HBN bullets have been fired down the bores. The opaque, translucent, pale white coating of HBN is visible to the naked eye on the bore at the muzzle, and it becomes more obvious after several HBN bullets have been fired, compared to the initial HBN coated bullet down the HBN/alcohol swabbed bore.
What I'm saying is, swabbing the bore with the skim milk is not the equivalent of firing HBN coated bullets down the bore. If you were only going to do one or the other, I believe it would HAVE to be the HBN coated bullets. Cleaning a bore and swabbing it with the HBN/alcohol mixture likely only assists in getting the HBN initially laid down onto the surface of the bore, in my opinion.
Hope to hear back from you if you're shooting HBN coated bullets. You shoot a lot, and you also keep meticulous records (as do I), so I'm sure interested in hearing of your HBN experiences with respect to resultant MV versus powder charges, accuracy, and any noted affects on ES.
It all takes time, and we only have so much of that to allocate to any one effort. I continue to post any significant/meaningful HBN information and insights in this Thread that Steve started, as I continue to collect some additional MV data over time.
I used 1 1/2 teaspoons per 8 ounces of denatured alcohol. It wasn't too concentrated in my opinion. I read on one of the forums where a knowledgable experienced HBN'er was using 1 Tablespoon per 16 ounces of alcohol.
That guy had been miss-quoted once as using 1 teaspoon per 16 ounces of alcohol. So he came back in to correct this error, and clarified that he and his buddies were using 1 Tablespoon per 16 ounces.
FYI, 1 Tablespoon = 3 Teaspoons.
__________________________
I wouldn't be afraid to use a little higher concentration, based on my experiences. My 1 1/2 teaspoons per 8 fluid ounces isn't viscous at all. Like a very pale skim milk in appearance and similar viscosity to alcohol without any HBN. My mixture doesn't leave any abundunce of HBN on the bore after the alcohol evaporates, based on my visual inspection. (I don't own a bore scope. I'm just examining the bore at the muzzle with an led flashlight.)
I would also say this about HBN coating the bore. I don't think folks should conclude that swabbing the bore with an HBN/alcohol patch and firing a single bullet will produce a fully HBN coated bore. In my MV testing, it still takes several HBN coated bullets down the bore before the bore produces stable MVs. In my opinion, the HBN/alcohol swabbing of a squeaky clean bore helps avoid firing on a dry bore, and it may reduce the number of HBN coated bullets that will need to be fired down the bore to complete the HBN coating of the bore.
The primary means of coating the bore is the HBN bullets being fired down the bore, in my observations. I've treated and fired HBN coated bullets down 4 bores now, and I inspected the muzzle of the bore after the first shot on the freshly treated bore, and then after several more HBN bullets have been fired down the bores. The opaque, translucent, pale white coating of HBN is visible to the naked eye on the bore at the muzzle, and it becomes more obvious after several HBN bullets have been fired, compared to the initial HBN coated bullet down the HBN/alcohol swabbed bore.
What I'm saying is, swabbing the bore with the skim milk is not the equivalent of firing HBN coated bullets down the bore. If you were only going to do one or the other, I believe it would HAVE to be the HBN coated bullets. Cleaning a bore and swabbing it with the HBN/alcohol mixture likely only assists in getting the HBN initially laid down onto the surface of the bore, in my opinion.
Hope to hear back from you if you're shooting HBN coated bullets. You shoot a lot, and you also keep meticulous records (as do I), so I'm sure interested in hearing of your HBN experiences with respect to resultant MV versus powder charges, accuracy, and any noted affects on ES.
It all takes time, and we only have so much of that to allocate to any one effort. I continue to post any significant/meaningful HBN information and insights in this Thread that Steve started, as I continue to collect some additional MV data over time.
I HBN coated about 300 60gr .223 bullets without any stainless pellets. Just the bullets and HBN, David Tubbs style. No surprises. It looks like the bullets were successfully impact coated with HBN. Another benefit to eliminating the stainless pellets is that there's less weight in the plastic container absorbing the energy from the vibratory tumbler. So more bullets can be tumbled during every tumbling event and there's still less total weight in the vibratory tumbler.
The bullets have the sheen of the HBN coating and are slick to the touch.
The bullets have the sheen of the HBN coating and are slick to the touch.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
Trying to be constructive here so please let the past go.
I never thought about taking the SS media out for small bullets. Good idea, thank you for sharing that, it will save time with less batches to do for smaller projectiles.
I don't know if you mentioned this before: I handle my coated bullets with gloves. Trying not to contaminate the coating. Basically, I always wear gloves during any phase of reloading process. Not to protect me from goo but to prevent cross contamination. I clean everything but how clean is clean. I would eat off my surfaces, prepared cases and bullets but not do surgery on them. There is always something somewhere. If I detect an oil sheen on the gloves from say lube on the press, rather than have the contamination into my skin and transferred to the loaded round, peal off the gloves and put on new ones. My hands are big and calloused and rough, I wouldn't even see grease on my fingers so it would get transferred to the bullets or loaded rounds.
I never thought about taking the SS media out for small bullets. Good idea, thank you for sharing that, it will save time with less batches to do for smaller projectiles.
I don't know if you mentioned this before: I handle my coated bullets with gloves. Trying not to contaminate the coating. Basically, I always wear gloves during any phase of reloading process. Not to protect me from goo but to prevent cross contamination. I clean everything but how clean is clean. I would eat off my surfaces, prepared cases and bullets but not do surgery on them. There is always something somewhere. If I detect an oil sheen on the gloves from say lube on the press, rather than have the contamination into my skin and transferred to the loaded round, peal off the gloves and put on new ones. My hands are big and calloused and rough, I wouldn't even see grease on my fingers so it would get transferred to the bullets or loaded rounds.
Broz
Well-Known Member
Paul, hope this isn't a redundant question as I haven't read this entire thread. But have you looked at the chemical make up between Tubbs and Bullet Coatings HBN? If so your thoughts?
Thanks
Jeff
Thanks
Jeff
SHRTSHTR
Well-Known Member
Paul,
I also watched the David Tubbs video again and do not think he is using any media when vibratory tumbling his bullets, as you had suggested. As you know I used the bulletcoating.com kit with assorted media in SS. The media pinged and dinged the 300g Bergers pretty good. Also deformed the Meplat and left small dents in Meplat face. Pretty easy to see how crappy the jackets looked after looking at them closely with a 35 power microscope. I also used our Profilometer to check surface finish before and after HBN and tumbling media. Lost 4 point after tumbling bullets with media. Bullets were slippery but surface finish was rougher. Bad Mojo in my books.
Took 100 300g bullets, pointed and trimmed Meplat and redrilled hole. Cleaned bullets in Acetone and let air dry. Preheated oven to 180 degrees and heat bullets and pill bottle for 30 minutes (did not melt plastic). I then used the big spoon supplied from bullet coating and added to bullets. Vibratory tumbled for 45 minutes and after shaking bullets in a strainer, I toweled of any excess HBN from bullets.
Very happy with this method, no damage or pinging whatsoever! Bullets are slick and ready to load.
Thanks for your help Paul! Yes, I did dump all the SS media in the trash can
Ray
I also watched the David Tubbs video again and do not think he is using any media when vibratory tumbling his bullets, as you had suggested. As you know I used the bulletcoating.com kit with assorted media in SS. The media pinged and dinged the 300g Bergers pretty good. Also deformed the Meplat and left small dents in Meplat face. Pretty easy to see how crappy the jackets looked after looking at them closely with a 35 power microscope. I also used our Profilometer to check surface finish before and after HBN and tumbling media. Lost 4 point after tumbling bullets with media. Bullets were slippery but surface finish was rougher. Bad Mojo in my books.
Took 100 300g bullets, pointed and trimmed Meplat and redrilled hole. Cleaned bullets in Acetone and let air dry. Preheated oven to 180 degrees and heat bullets and pill bottle for 30 minutes (did not melt plastic). I then used the big spoon supplied from bullet coating and added to bullets. Vibratory tumbled for 45 minutes and after shaking bullets in a strainer, I toweled of any excess HBN from bullets.
Very happy with this method, no damage or pinging whatsoever! Bullets are slick and ready to load.
Thanks for your help Paul! Yes, I did dump all the SS media in the trash can
Ray
Yeah,
If I've handled the bullets previously, such as when I meplat uniform and countersink the VLD/Hybrid style bullets with the Kevin Cram Meplat Uniforming/Hollowpointing tool, I degrease the the entire batch of bullets with Acetone prior to HBN coating/vibratory tumbling. This is really fast and simple, but it does require the purchase of Acetone. If I open new box of bullets for vibratory tumbling and I haven't handled them to any extent, then I don't wash in acetone. I think they're grease free from the factory and they've been coating fine for me.
I agree the bullets should not have grease or oil on them prior to HBN vibratory tumbling/coating.
Paul
Jeff,
I have not attempted that, because it was clear to me from reviewing the David Tubbs video and reading his web site, that he considers his HBN powder to be a proprietary blend that he's refined over the past 10 years of use. I personally think that is promotional hype for his HBN powder being better than all other HBN powder. I'm sure Tubbs doesn't manufacture his own HBN. He may or may not mix up a custom blend. No way to know unless you're related to David Tubbs. because he promotes his custom blend and I seriously doubt Mr. Tubbs is sharing his formula.
I did a lot of research and their were some manufacturers of the HBN that give/gave their advice on the best sizes of HBN to use to coat bullets. Bulletcoatings.com is selling the size HBN powder size most commonly recommended, according to their web site information.
Paul
Paul,
I also watched the David Tubbs' video again and do not think he is using any media when vibratory tumbling his bullets, as you had suggested.
Took 100 300g bullets, pointed and trimmed Meplat and redrilled hole. Cleaned bullets in Acetone and let air dry. Preheated oven to 180 degrees and heat bullets and pill bottle for 30 minutes (did not melt plastic). I then used the big spoon supplied from bullet coating and added to bullets. Vibratory tumbled for 45 minutes and after shaking bullets in a strainer, I toweled of any excess HBN from bullets.
Very happy with this method, no damage or pinging whatsoever! Bullets are slick and ready to load.
Thanks for your help Paul! Yes, I did dump all the SS media in the trash can
Ray
Good to hear Ray, and glad your HBN bullets are looking better under your inspection, visual and otherwise. You caused me to question the use of any tumbling media, and I have pretty much concluded there should be no need for any pellets. Thanks for sharing your experience, because I have benefited from it.
The surface of the bullets that needs to be coated is the bearing surface, and that surface will be the primary surface impacting in the plastic container loaded solely with bullets, so the bearing surfaces should impact plate with HBN just fine. The boattails and the tapering points may not impact plate with HBN as well without my 1/8" stainless pellets, but those surfaces of the bullets don't contact the bore anyhow. So I have no concerns vibratory tumbling the bullets against themselves - solely.
Eliminating the stainless tumbling media from the plastic container also reduces the weight loading on the vibratory tumbler, which means the energy/vibration/impacts from the tumbler should be more efficient/effective in impact coating the HBN on the bearing surfaces of our bullets. I'm pretty sure David Tubbs came to realize this long ago, and that's why he doesn't use or sell stainless tumbling media.
I don't know where the pellets and tumbling media added to the bullets came from. I suspect folks felt it to be an improvement and it caught on and took hold. But how does one improve on the David Tubbs' method? He's been coating bullets with HBN and using them in competition for the past 10 years. That's a tough one to improve upon...
Broz
Well-Known Member
You guys have sold me on taking the stainless out. So you feel the results will be as good with all weights of bullets with no media? For now I am using an actual tumbler (non vibratory) and do 100 of the 300 gr OTM's for 3 hours.
Jeff
Jeff
