Firing Solutions-- Skeletons in the closet?!?

geo4061

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When I come up with a firing solution I want it to be perfect. This week I have learned that our tools have skeletons. Three examples are:
The clicks on the Zeiss scope are in inches not moa.
The G7 does not figure in spin drift and coriolis effect.
The Leica !600 and the RF binocular show an incorrect shoot to.
Are these skeletons correct and are there more?
What is the simplest, fastest way to come up with the perfect firing solution?
 

bruce_ventura

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I use a rangefinder and ballistic app for all shooting. Most of the smart phone apps include all ballistic effects. I use Ballistic AE on my iPhone, and it includes everything. It also outputs in any conceivable turret unit, including actual measured click values, like 0.235 IPHY.
 

Broz

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When I come up with a firing solution I want it to be perfect. This week I have learned that our tools have skeletons. Three examples are:
The clicks on the Zeiss scope are in inches not moa.
The G7 does not figure in spin drift and coriolis effect.
The Leica !600 and the RF binocular show an incorrect shoot to.
Are these skeletons correct and are there more?
What is the simplest, fastest way to come up with the perfect firing solution?
My thoughts.

I can agree about IPHY or moa scopes. But as Bruce stated these can be dealt with in any good App.

The G7 issue you speak of. Yes but again not an issue if you use a good ballistic app and one of the reasons some of us prefer the app method.

Not sure what you are saying about the Leica's, but I use mine for a range distance only and they are some of the most accurate laser RF's you can get. I have tested my 1600 against my $4,000. Vectronix RF many many times and the Leica does indeed give accurate readings and does it very well with it's precise small beam divergence leaving less room for error than many other Laser Rfs.


"The simplest fastest way to a perfect shooting solution" To me it is with a trusted laser RF and my Applied Ballistics app on my phone. But understand getting to the perfect solution takes lots of development , verification and range time. The only way to speed this up to me would be to stay inside the distance where errors are still small. If you have a .5 moa combination of rifle, ammo and shooter skill that .5 moa error is only 3" at 600 yards. Definitely not going to be a problem on most large game animals we hunt.

Jeff
 

MBird

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I know everyone likes these apps and a lot of time has been spent making them

If you are having problems with these apps? What about your pen and paper

do your own firing solution! so you do not have to depend on the software or

apps.

It is always good to practice manual solutions

V/R
M.Bird
 

geo4061

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This was brought about by someone this week saying the shoot to on the Leica 1600 was not correct. Then someone said the Zeiss clicks were .25 not .26. Well, if true these are two errors I have been making. I am not a great shot And I am not great at judging the wind. Plenty of errors here. I am good at math and I can make my solution as precise as possible with your help. Thanks
 

Broz

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This was brought about by someone this week saying the shoot to on the Leica 1600 was not correct. Then someone said the Zeiss clicks were .25 not .26. Well, if true these are two errors I have been making. I am not a great shot And I am not great at judging the wind. Plenty of errors here. I am good at math and I can make my solution as precise as possible with your help. Thanks
Even with a scope that does not track perfectly true to .25 moa you can adjust that in your app to bring the solution spot on.

I think you can trust the Leica. To be sure you can compare it to another RF or better yet pull a tape to 300 yards and check it. One common mistake in RF's and apps are wrong input data and settings. Make sure the rf is on yards not meters. same with the app.

Jeff
 

geo4061

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Jeff, please clear your private messages. Have you tested the shoot to distances on the 1600 and the Vextronic. If not would you please.That would solve one problem. If we knew the shoot to on the 1600 was correct. Thanks
 

Broz

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Jeff, please clear your private messages. Have you tested the shoot to distances on the 1600 and the Vextronic. If not would you please.That would solve one problem. If we knew the shoot to on the 1600 was correct. Thanks
I have never used the shoot to option. I only use a Range finder to get accurate distances to the target then input that into my app.

The Vectronix has no shoot solution option. It is just a high end laser rf. I would stay away from the ballistic app in the Leica 1600. I do not feel it is a good option. Use the Leica for what it is good for, a very precise and accurate laser rf to find distance to the target.

For what its worth we shoot at distances from 500 yards to 2000 yards often. My app is always on or very close.

Sorry about the pm box, I am about 25 pm's behind getting them answered.

Jeff
 

geo4061

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So how do you get the angle? Then do you enter it or figure the shot to, then enter it? I know the ballistics are not accurate on the 1600B. That is why all the mistrust in the shoot to range. If any one has confirmed the shoot to please speak up. Thanks
 

Broz

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You enter the shoot angle right after the distance and the app calculates the dial up and gives it to you. You can get the shot angle from a angle or cosign indicator on your rifle, or the app will get it for you. To use the app/phone, you hit the get look angle tab and point the phone to the target. Then hit a hold button and it enters it automatically and it will be part of the shooting solution.

Jeff
 

bigngreen

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Another good point to NOT using a shoot to distance in an app is that if you give an app a line of sight range and an angle most will also figure in the change of elevation along the bullet flight path into the correction, if you us a shoot to number then at extreme range you'll have to average the atmo your bullet is going through plus there is a very slight difference between shooting up hill and down hill. I use either the in app tool to get the angle or I use the angle given by the 1600B.

As to the other issues your seeing, all optics need ran through at least a minimal tracking test by setting the optic up solid and at 300 ft making a mark on a board or paper for a top aim point then make a mark every revolution on the target of where it should track and make note of error and enter a calibration factor into the app.

G7 range finder just don't get it for me, I don't want to shoot within the constrains of it, I would not call them skeletons it's not an elr capable tool and as such has limits.
 

RockyMtnMT

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I use the Ballistic AE app in an ipod touch. It is the only thing I have on the ipod. I bought it just for the app. Makes me feel better that nothing can interfere with my shooting app. Anyway, I use the ipod to figure angle for up or down by getting my rifle locked in on the target and setting the ipod on the top turret of the scope pointing towards the target, it then figures the los angle and gives the correct dial ups.

I think that guys get caught up in trying to find a faster way to calc the lrh hunting shot for fear of the animal getting away. For me if the animal is not relaxed enough for me to take the needed time to get everything set up, then there was not a good shot. It takes a fair amount of time to get set up, no way around it. We hunt as a team. One guy on the rifle the other making the calcs. That way all the shooter has to do is concentrate on the weapon and the target. The guy doing the calcs makes sure the shooter has the right dope. Doing that alone is difficult, and takes more time. Practice with your hunting buddy and as a team you can get fairly quick. Just remember if there is not enough time to set it up accurately, there isn't a good shot.

my .02

Steve
 

bruce_ventura

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I use the Ballistic AE app in an ipod touch. It is the only thing I have on the ipod. I bought it just for the app...

I think that guys get caught up in trying to find a faster way to calc the lrh hunting shot for fear of the animal getting away. For me if the animal is not relaxed enough for me to take the needed time to get everything set up, then there was not a good shot. It takes a fair amount of time to get set up, no way around it...
+1^

Reminds me of my last deer hunt in Nebraska. I saw a nice meat mulie just standing against the skyline at dusk, about 350 yds from our vehicle. There's was a hill behind him to the left, but no backstop from the angle I was at. We were hunting large land parcels, but I didn't know how far the next road or building was behind the buck. My hunting buddies expected me to take the shot. They thought I was a bit crazy when I asked the driver to move us another 100 yds FURTHER away and to the right so that the hill was behind the buck. He was about 450 yds away at that point, just sniffing the air and watching a herd of deer about a half mile behind us.

I set up my daypack as a rest, got in a good position for the shot and checked my scope magnification. Then I set the rifle down and took another three minutes to ping the buck with my rangefinder and calculate the firing solution using Ballistic on my iPhone. My hunting buddies were astonished how calmly I checked and rechecked my dope. They didn't know that the week before, I had measured my bullet drops out to 600 yds at the same altitude (3200ft) in California. I had dialed in the BC and was completely confident in the software.

I held off on the BDC reticle and dropped the buck with the first shot from my 270. I aimed for a spot behind the shoulder and missed the wind call, severing the spine 4-5 inches to the left. The land owner was happy to see the deer hanging in his pole barn that night.

Moral of the story: confirm your bullet drops and take your time to calculate a good firing solution. And don't forget to double-check the wind before you shoot! Good software won't make up for a marginal shot, but it can prevent a marginal shot from becoming a bad one.
 

Greyfox

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I think it all boils down to the range, game, and method that you hunt. The skeletons that appear can vary with the each application. Solve one and another appears. As an example, for my 1000+ yard shooting when I deal with all variables, Terrapin, ballistics calculator, atmosphere, angle ect, I eliminate the skeletons of the G7 you mention, but a new skeleton that appears. Due to the added time to get a solution with the added steps, I have miss out on a lot of my shot opportunities on mature and skittish whitetails. As a result, I optimize with the G7's speed, and if I need a spin drift or coreolis for the rare shot at 1000 yards or so, I will commit to memory adjustments for SD and CE and make the added correction. While not perfect, with practice I have made a material difference in my success on whitetails and feel ai have an optimum system for this application. I wouldn't use this approach for a shot at game farther out, and make the trade off in method because the skeletons show up again. Unfortunately, one size does not fit all..........yet.
 

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