Coppermelt, what am I doing wrong?

[kraky2]

The best system I've found to get chemicals applied to the bore is a bore mop--not patches or brushes. I'm currently in love with wipeout but used to use sweets before.
I had a guy at work who's good with wood make me a rack that held the gun pointed towards the floor of my shop. (Kind of looks like a saw horse with cross pieces drilled for the barrel.). On the floor I'd place a small pan with about 1/4" of sweets in the bottom. (I actually cut the bottom off a plastic coke bottle off and put the chemical in one of the "dimples" in the bottom). I'd put my boreguide in the gun and push the cleaning rod down through the barrel till the bore mop soaked up some of the chemical. Then I would stroke up and down the barrel until blue foam would start appearing. I'd leave it sit for 10 minutes and then patch it out. If I was badly fouled I'd do it again.
This system worked really good for me. Don't know if you guys can imagine it as I described but it was the cats meow. Also when done just wash up the bore mop with some dish liquid and let dry for the next time. The rack had holes for three guns so I could work over one gun and while it sat for a 10 minute soak I could work on the next gun etc etc. Now wipeout seems to do the trick with even more ease.

 

[goodgrouper]

Yeah I have a friend who uses Wipeout and he loves it very much. He uses it to get most the crud out of his barrel before starting in with Coppermelt so he doesn't use as much Coppermelt.

When I asked him why he did this he said, "cause I don't want to use up my liquid gold." In other words, he likes his Coppermelt a wee bit better than Wipe-out.

 

[kraky2]

Too bad borescopes are so expensive. It would be fun to have one on hand to be the "deliar" of cleaning methods!!!
Seriously though wipeout is so ez to use that I would be the last one to claim "it gets EVERYTHING OUT". I can easily understand your buddies idea of getting the most out and then let the coppermelt to the last bit.
A friend of mine has a shooting range at his house. I gave him my finicky weatherby 300 ultralight and a bunch of different recipes I've loaded to try and get shooting good at 300 yds. I also gave him my boresnake which he runs 2 passes though the barrel every 10-15 shots as he changes recipes. He cleaned after about 50 rounds even though accuracy was still good and proclaimed the barrel was amazingly clean evidently because of the boresnake idea.
As a matter of fact it might have been shooting better towards the end of the 50 rounds than the begining. Maybe a little "highway paving" theory going on there??
So far the winning recipes are with the 165 grain northfork, the 168 tsx, and 180 grain swift aframes. All these are giving baseball size groups at 300yds with a 9x scope and I don't like his sandbag set up at all. I'm thinking a rock solid rest, finer haired higher powered scope, and better "sight picture" than orange dots might tweak the groups alot---but then again I won't have these things on my carribou hunt so I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

[jb1000br]

Man, i didnt read this whole thread, but i can tell you using Wipeout is much less stressful!

www.sharpshootr.com

Sheeet! it takes more time, but much less effort.

let it soak for a few hours (i have let it soak for 2 days, but like overnight the best) and patch it out.

It is 1/3 the cost of Coppermelt, lasts forever (been using 2 cans since 2000), no smell, nothing, it just works!

Anywho, I also know where you can get some cheap if interested.

email me

jb1000br at yahoo.com at = @ of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

JB

 

[goodgrouper]

I'm curious Jason,
Have you ever tried Coppermelt?

You know, Abraham Lincoln once said that if he didn't like something that it was the perfect opportunity to learn more about it in hopes of understanding it and liking it better.

I don't understand how you could know that Coppermelt takes more time if you have never tried it.

I have used both methods and can tell you Coppermelt is MUCH faster, less messy, and 3.5 oz of the stuff lasts a LOOONG TIME! I clean multiple guns every week all year long and I have only used three and a half cans this year!

If time is money, then Coppermelt saves you big dollar.
Wipeout is a good product, but when I need to clean a gun in the field at a match or out varminting, I can't sit around and wait for Wipeout to work overnight or even a few hours. THe chucks need to be shot now! Coppermelt allows me to take 15 minutes to clean and get back into action!

The bottom line is that you are just cheating yourself by talking yourself out of a bottle based on pre-concieved notions. And you might deterr someone else from trying it because they believed you knew something about it.

 

[jb1000br]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious Jason,
Have you ever tried Coppermelt?

You know, Abraham Lincoln once said that if he didn't like something that it was the perfect opportunity to learn more about it in hopes of understanding it and liking it better.

I don't understand how you could know that Coppermelt takes more time if you have never tried it.

I have used both methods and can tell you Coppermelt is MUCH faster, less messy, and 3.5 oz of the stuff lasts a LOOONG TIME! I clean multiple guns every week all year long and I have only used three and a half cans this year!

If time is money, then Coppermelt saves you big dollar.
Wipeout is a good product, but when I need to clean a gun in the field at a match or out varminting, I can't sit around and wait for Wipeout to work overnight or even a few hours. THe chucks need to be shot now! Coppermelt allows me to take 15 minutes to clean and get back into action!

The bottom line is that you are just cheating yourself by talking yourself out of a bottle based on pre-concieved notions. And you might deterr someone else from trying it because they believed you knew something about it.

[/ QUOTE ]


WHOA!, chill mang!

this -> "it takes more time, but much less effort."
was referring to the wipe-out, NOT the coppermelt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

i was saying the wipe-out is less hassle than has been conveyed in this thread-- and it is! no special brush/patch wrapping, no stroking, no contamination issues, no smell, no sensitive enzyme, just soak and patch out = less hassle

Im sure it works fine, but what i said still remains true.

If someone sends me some to try i will, but i wont be spending 30$ on a bottle.

When i need to clean quick, GM TEC, and/or bore tech eliminator does just fine, and you still dont need to worry about contamination.

Question:

since enzymes are proteins, and proteins dont respond well to heat...What happens if you leave the bottle in the sun while shooting PD's?

YMMV,
JB

 

[Delta Hunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Question:

since enzymes are proteins, and proteins dont respond well to heat...What happens if you leave the bottle in the sun while shooting PD's?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to know the answer to that too. The reason is that I want to try this stuff and I'm concerned about ordering any this time of year. I don't know what'll happen to it in the back of a UPS truck or on my front porch on a day like today when the temperature is hovering around 100. And we've got about 3 more months of this before it starts getting cooler. Should I wait and order it in the fall?

 

[goodgrouper]

I am very chilled Jason. And I know what you meant. You believe that it is such a HUGE pain to wrap patches around a brush when in fact, it takes all of 5 agonizing seconds to do so. And that is if you have 10 thumbs like me! I KNOW you spend more time measuring bearing surfaces on bullets than it would take you to wrap a patch. And I also know that you spent WAY more dough on primers this year than 30 bucks for the cost of Coppermelt.

You also make a huge deal out of contamination when in reality it takes no more care to keep Coppermelt sterile than keeping floaties out of your Coke, and I'm sure we are all good at that.

[ QUOTE ]
If someone sends me some to try i will, but i wont be spending 30$ on a bottle.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're loss dude. THere is no free lunch in this sport I'm afraid. If you want to upgrage your shooting experience, only you can do that. DId you scoff at the idea of paying your IBS dues this year? It is probably double the cost of a bottle of Coppermelt and it probably won't last as long.


[ QUOTE ]
bore tech eliminator does just fine,

[/ QUOTE ]

It might for now, but just wait until you're throat gets a little more worn and the copper likes to stick to it more. I have used Bore Tech once on a rough barrel and Coppermelt cleaned it out at least twice-no make that 3 times faster.



[ QUOTE ]
since enzymes are proteins, and proteins dont respond well to heat...What happens if you leave the bottle in the sun while shooting PD's?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have never gone out and intentionally roasted a bottle of Coppermelt to see if I could kill it but I can say that it actually seems to clean slightly better in July than in January. Remember, most forms of bacteria (which are also made up of simple proteins and amino acids I believe) actually thrive much better in hot weather. I'm sure that if you left it on your dashboard with the windows rolled up in August that it would kill it, but if you did that with Bore tech, you would have a solvent Chernoble in your cockpit for sure.

I remember from a post of your's awhile back that you keep all your ammo in a cooler during the match. Good idea. If it worries you, keep the Coppermelt in there too but I think that is over-reacting. It really is not as frangible as it sounds. I have not been kind to mine all the time and it still has a gruesome appetite for copper.

Bottom line:
Please don't discourage folks from trying it just because you don't like it for some reason that's not founded on personal experience.
I don't really care if you don't want to believe me. It is no skin off my teeth if you don't try it. I don't get part of the proceeds. I was just trying to help a fellow shooter. But you know what they say: you can lead a horse to water....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[jb1000br]

Let review...

All i said was WO was less stressful, and less complicated to use.

I also said wipeout takes more time, but less effort.

you said:
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how you could know that Coppermelt takes more time if you have never tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

regarding my statement:
[ QUOTE ]
it takes more time, but much less effort.
let it soak for a few hours (i have let it soak for 2 days, but like overnight the best) and patch it out.


[/ QUOTE ]


then you said:
[ QUOTE ]
And I know what you meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously didnt know what i meant with a statement like that.

Misunderstanding on your part only, no need to lynch me up for speaking of what i dont know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

My statement still stands -- WIPEOUT takes MORE soak time, but is less hassle than is conveyed in this thread, for the reasons posted above -- no lies, just facts.

No bashing, just facts.

WIPEOUT only requires you spray it in, and patch it out 15min-several hours later -- how much less complicated could it be?

Im just trying to tell this feller that there are less complicated options out there--again, Am I wrong?

I have not said anything that is not true, have I? I have just stated facts right?

Didnt make a huge deal out of anything, again just stated facts.

Again, I know Coppermelt is FASTER, but that was not the point of my post!

You said:
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most forms of bacteria (which are also made up of simple proteins and amino acids I believe) actually thrive much better in hot weather. I'm sure that if you left it on your dashboard with the windows rolled up in August that it would kill it,

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, as far as enzymes v. bacteria:

enzymes in solution, as opposed to being contained within bacteria are a totally different ball game, and much more susceptible to damage. INSIDE bacteria they are in a protected, buffered environment, IN SOLUTION (like coppermelt) THEY ARE NOT.

so they are more sensitive

as far as bacteria that thrive in heat, MOST bacteria in the world are mesophiles and like body temp (37C). Some thermophiles like it hot, but pretty much exist around volcanic vents on the ocean floor.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with naked enzymes in solution

In direct sunlight (not on the dash, just on your shooting table maybe) will push that baby WAY past 37C, and probably closer to 60C -- This will NOT BE GOOD for the enzyme!

I would hate to accidentaly leave a new 30$ bottle in the sun and have it ruined by heat.

You said:
[ QUOTE ]
I remember from a post of your's awhile back that you keep all your ammo in a cooler during the match. Good idea. If it worries you, keep the Coppermelt in there too but I think that is over-reacting. It really is not as frangible as it sounds. I have not been kind to mine all the time and it still has a gruesome appetite for copper.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not in a cooler, just in a pelican 1200(?) box -- keeps the temp a little more stable.

If you get some FACTS about the enzyme's hardiness and tolerance, i'd like to hear them.

also you said:

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line:
Please don't discourage folks from trying it just because you don't like it for some reason that's not founded on personal experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasnt try to discourage, and was basing what i said on FACTS -- again, just letting the feller (who started this thread) know that there are other options.

JB

 

[4ked Horn]

Longrange, I have not been following this thread but this morning I scanned it and noticed that you were looking for ideas on using a .17 cal brush without having to buy the .17 cal rod with the tiny threads. Well what I actually did was to buy the KleenBore .17 cal nylon bore brush (with the tiny threads) and a little brass extension they make that is about 3/4" long that has the standard size threads. I simply glued the brush into the extension with some JB Weld and when it got hard enough I filed the JB Weld to form a taper so there were no sharp edges to catch anywhere.

Total cost about 3 bucks and completion time anout 24 hours. Only trick is holding the two parts in a straight line while the epoxy hardens.

I am going to buy a digital camera and keep it next to this computer. I hate not being able to show you guys stuff like this. A picture really is worth a thousand words.

 

[kac1345]

Thanks I will give it a try. Yeah Pics..Pics

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I know Coppermelt is FASTER, but that was not the point of my post!



[/ QUOTE ]

There you go again!
The whole point of my post was to ask how can you say you know ANYTHING about Coppermelt when you have never used it. That is armchair theory at it's finest.

I have no problem with you stating facts or opinions about WO because you have obviously used it. But at the same time, you state things about Coppermelt that show you have obviously NEVER used it.

As I said in my earlier post, Coppermelt is not finicky with temps. I have used it in the sun all day during the summer months and it is still alive!

You're complaints are unfounded. You have not even looked into the product enough to know if they put a buffer around the enzyme to protect it before you call it a bare enzyme.

You also state that WO is easier to use in which I replied that wrapping patches is not difficult at all unless you have no fingers. It takes five seconds.

If you wanted to just let others know there were other options in cleaning, then making a fresh post about Wipeout would be the best route rather than portraying the idea that you had tried CM and saying it was too difficult to bother with.

[ QUOTE ]
If you get some FACTS about the enzyme's hardiness and tolerance, i'd like to hear them.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have provided pages and pages of "facts" on this topic that were as concrete as the "facts" you made about WO. If there is something else that I learn or can tell you, I will. It has been awhile since my college biology class, but if I can understand some new info on the biology of the product then it will be here a.s.a.p.

[ QUOTE ]
, no need to lynch me up for speaking

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not intend to lynch you about this. I hope you understand that the tone of this writing is not a derogatory one. I respect you and know that you know you're stuff. It is just a big pet peeve of mine to have armchair theorists ruling the propaganda of new products, and my ethics dictate I speak up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[jb1000br]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, I know Coppermelt is FASTER, but that was not the point of my post!



[/ QUOTE ]

There you go again!
The whole point of my post was to ask how can you say you know ANYTHING about Coppermelt when you have never used it. That is armchair theory at it's finest.

I have no problem with you stating facts or opinions about WO because you have obviously used it. But at the same time, you state things about Coppermelt that show you have obviously NEVER used it.

As I said in my earlier post, Coppermelt is not finicky with temps. I have used it in the sun all day during the summer months and it is still alive!

You're complaints are unfounded. You have not even looked into the product enough to know if they put a buffer around the enzyme to protect it before you call it a bare enzyme.

You also state that WO is easier to use in which I replied that wrapping patches is not difficult at all unless you have no fingers. It takes five seconds.

If you wanted to just let others know there were other options in cleaning, then making a fresh post about Wipeout would be the best route rather than portraying the idea that you had tried CM and saying it was too difficult to bother with.

[ QUOTE ]
If you get some FACTS about the enzyme's hardiness and tolerance, i'd like to hear them.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have provided pages and pages of "facts" on this topic that were as concrete as the "facts" you made about WO. If there is something else that I learn or can tell you, I will. It has been awhile since my college biology class, but if I can understand some new info on the biology of the product then it will be here a.s.a.p.

[ QUOTE ]
, no need to lynch me up for speaking

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not intend to lynch you about this. I hope you understand that the tone of this writing is not a derogatory one. I respect you and know that you know you're stuff. It is just a big pet peeve of mine to have armchair theorists ruling the propaganda of new products, and my ethics dictate I speak up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Um, you said it was FAST, so i ASSumed, since you said it was FAST, that is was indeed FAST --

others have also said it takes copper out fast

so am i wrong saying it is fast /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

obviously it is faster than WO -- you have showed that -- i dont need to use it to know that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I have never been to the center of the earth either, but i can tell you it is hotter 'n heck down there!

had i said "it doesnt touch carbon" then you could accuse me of armchair QB'ing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

RE: Enzyme and buffer

Indeed i did read up on copermelt, but the fact that it is in a buffered solution, GOES WITHOUT SAYING. The naked enzyme out of its home organism would REQUIRE a buffered solution, or it wouldnt last long /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Buffers only moderate pH changes, they dont help with heat

[DISCLAIMER]: Again-- just speaking of the biology of enzymes in solution here, not directly speaking of the coppermelt mixture since i have never used it. [/DISCLAIMER]

FWIW and YMMV,

JB

 

[goodgrouper]

[ QUOTE ]
DISCLAIMER]: Again-- just speaking of the biology of enzymes in solution here, not directly speaking of the coppermelt mixture since i have never used it. [/DISCLAIMER]


[/ QUOTE ]



LOL. A disclaimer, now that is something one sees not very often on this forum! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif