Bullet lethality: energy and velocity

Don't know why but I feel like a lightbulb just came on. I may have been viewing energy incorrectly all along. Energy is nothing more than a number representing an objects momentum. Momentum is necessary when it comes to bullets because it is a direct correlation to depth of penetration. So rather than viewing the kinetic energy of a bullet as a force to be transferred into the soft tissues, it should be viewed as the driving force for the penetration of the bullet. Right? But that feels partially incorrect to me
 
Professional Hunters in Africa require 85 pounds of kinetic energy for hunting Cape buffalo with archery equipment.

My point is that KE doesn't mean anything. Why does an animal shot with a 223 Rem drop and the same species of animal with a 338 Win Mag run 200 yards? If KE had anything to do with the killing ability this wouldn't ever happen.

Keep impacts 1800-2000 fps or more with a properly designed bullet for the cartridge and learn to put it where it belongs.

Steve
 
It is true that a bullet exitting takes some energy with it, the question is how much? If it exits at 100fps or 1000fps it makes a big difference. One is 600ft-ibs one is next to nothing.
There is of course no way of testing that on an animal, but there has to be a way to come up with some good geralizations.

Also run the same bullet, lets say a 215 berger, at 30-06 speed or 300rum speed. The 300 could exit the far side and still transfer more energy into the animal.

I honestly think we are making this issue more complicated than it needed to be for what it is worth, esp. when we do not have the means to measure it as you noted. The overall goal should be a load combination where the maximum energy dump (transfer) is absorbed by the animal at the point of impact. Personally, it does not matter to me what the velocity of the bullet or fragments that manages to exit. The video states 40-90% fo the bullet's mass disperses upon 3-5" penetration depending on impact velocity. That is a very substantial amount of energy dump. The majority of my Berger kills do not have exit wounds. So it is obvious that you also want to capitalize on the impact velocity, impact energy, bullet design performance at the point of impact, and of course shot placement.

The Berger design capability to dump maximum energy nearly upon impact and without the necessary pass-through to kill an animal is what made me switch from Nosler Partition and Accubond to Berger. It also reduces the risk of injuring/killing another animal behind target game esp. at long ranges unnecessarily - not visible during the target acquisition or whatever the case may be.

Since you are talking about 215 Berger. If I used my .300 WSM currently loaded with 215 Berger at 2800 FPS and if I adhere to my unwritten rule of 1000 FT-LBS of energy for deer and 1500 FT-LBS of energy for elk, my numbers are:

For elk: 950 yards, 1812 FPS, and 1568 FT-LBS

For deer: 1350 yards, 1461 FPS, and 1019 FT-LBS

However, because I want to keep the velocity threshold at a minimum of 1800 FPS, my self-imposed maximum range would be the same for both, 950 yards (even though the calculated energy for deer at 1350 yards meets the 1000 FT-LBS threshold). I like to keep things simple when possible and this is simply the guide I go by, instead of worrying about the wasted energy when the bullet manages to exit or at what velocity. This, in essence, is "my" generalization.

Cheers!
 
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Yeah I feel like I way over complicated all of this and it's making me nauseous lol. I'm just gonna go back to focusing on velocity and accuracy I think. Until I get curious again...
 
It's probably not what you want to hear but "IF" you are looking for data, esp. "empirical data", good luck with that.

However, you can compile the opinions/real-world personal experiences and synthesize the information being presented to you and use them to your advantage.

Good luck!

Ed

Ed is right. His previously mentioned energy numbers of 1000 ft/lbs (Deer sized)/1500 ft/lbs (Elk) as minimum guidelines I agree with and then velocity as recommended for the bullet is about as good as it gets. The Nathan Foster linked article I posted is excellent. There are just too many variables to get hard and fast with this. Putting the bullet in the right place with enough damage to do the job. We can go on forever with the what ifs.
 
..,..,,,,His previously mentioned energy numbers of 1000 ft/lbs (Deer sized)/1500 ft/lbs (Elk) as minimum guidelines...,,,,,,,

Plenty of handgun, and muzzleloader loads in common use that don't meet these levels at the muzzle.
How do we interpret this? Again we're back to while energy is present, it's more of a by product in the killing of big game.
 
I like a nice drain hole. About fist sized. Every animal woll not drop in its tracks. Leaves a good blood trail. Also, i've alwals felt the cold air rushing in to the vitals also had some effect. Just seems like they dont go as far with a good drain hole when they do take off. Bullets that blow up inside often will stop them on the spot, but not always. Wgen they don't, the animal can ve difficult to find if cover is very heavy. I think those bullets should be used in fairly open country.
 
Don't know why but I feel like a lightbulb just came on. I may have been viewing energy incorrectly all along. Energy is nothing more than a number representing an objects momentum. Momentum is necessary when it comes to bullets because it is a direct correlation to depth of penetration. So rather than viewing the kinetic energy of a bullet as a force to be transferred into the soft tissues, it should be viewed as the driving force for the penetration of the bullet. Right? But that feels partially incorrect to me
You are still viewing energy incorrectly. Momentum = mass X velocity. The mass & velocity both contribute equally to momentum. Velocity contributes WAY more to kinetic energy than any other factor. Refer to my post way back in the beginning of this rabbit hole where I posted the calculation for K.E. K.E.= (.5)(Mass)X(Velocity squared).
 
I have always subscribed to energy transfer, but the pressure of hydrolics I believe has greater effect on a non CNS hit lethality than energy transfer. Even if the bullet keeps going out the other side, as long as it entered forward of the diaphragm and expanded, the liquid (which does not compress) will pressurize the system, rupturing arteries, veins, and capillaries. This animal cannot be saved. If you really want to know your components max effective range save some hide and bone and cover either a water trap or ballistic gel and shoot it at increasing distance until you recover a bullet that has not sufficiently opened. I bet you could get a grant/sponsorship for such an endeavor if you had the range and willingness to document. We had this same question back in the 90s and attempted to answer it with cull pigs from a family owned feeder lot. We were disinclined to make the study public, but we did learn ALOT! Other than relief grooves in mono metals, and a better bonding process in bonded bullets, it's amazing how little bullets have changed since then.
 
Plenty of handgun, and muzzleloader loads in common use that don't meet these levels at the muzzle.
How do we interpret this? Again we're back to while energy is present, it's more of a by product in the killing of big game.
Yes, I agree. They start out at velocities where other modern cartridges are "done" or out of range. They don't have the speed to initiate the hydraulic or hydrostatic shock that induces that temporary shutdown coma. They will however cause a 4ft long crushing wound channel through everything in their path.

A 22-250 carries way more energy than my 45-70. Does that make it more lethal? If I had a bear charging I know which I would want in my hands.

These are a good read along those lines.
 
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Kinetic energy or plain energy does not kill when referring to a bullet. If anything it may disrupt some tissue or break bones. My reason for making this statement is a 22 will kill just as well as any other caliber and it has less energy than say a 9mm. Several years ago there was an active shooter at the holocaust museum who killed several people with a 22 rifle. The shooter was finally shot in the head with a 9mm. The people who were killed in the museum died there, whereas the shooter who was shot in the head survived a few days maybe a couple of weeks before succumbing to the gunshot.


Personally I have worked at a level one trauma center for years and have seen a woman survive been shot in the head and face with a .357 magnum six times and a teenager die from a 22 bullet shot in the air during New Years eve celebration and die from that single wound. I'm sorry but those that believe that energy kills are wrong but energy is needed to insure that the bullet penetrates enough to hopefully hit an organ or an artery to cause internal bleeding thus allowing blood pressure to drop causing a systemic malfunction of every organ in the body.
 
Plenty of handgun, and muzzleloader loads in common use that don't meet these levels at the muzzle.
How do we interpret this? Again we're back to while energy is present, it's more of a by product in the killing of big game.

Those are "my" unwritten rule/guide for big-game rifle hunting that has worked for me for 40+ years, NOT for handgun or muzzleloader. When I start hunting with them and gain substantial real-world experience, perhaps I will come up with a similar guide for "me" to live by. 😇
 
Hello fellow members I'm no expert on this minimum stuff I been down in Mexico hunting and I have seen some shoots I wouldn't attempt my self since I was raised in the USA with the beliefs of minimum stuff my cousin dropped a nice buck with a little Ruger 10-22 203 yards measure with range finder the damage was very nice ammo of choice was águila 40gr flat nose and they also use full metal jacket 55gr for 223 rifle and have made some amazing shoots and killed the animals at 500 yards and below so i don't know maybe the couse deer here require less energy to be killed
 
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