Bullet lethality: energy and velocity

[Orange Dust]

I dont think all of this is that hard. Pick a bullet with correct constrhction for the game, sufficient sectional density for the penetration you need at close range, sufficient shape and velocity to have enough energy for the intended game at your max range, and keep your shooting didtance between the min and max operating range of the bullet. Then put it where it belongs and the next thing you will need is a knife. Every tjme.

 

[bigngreen]

Looking at my numbers probably 80% of the deer and antelope I've killed have been between 600 and 1000 ft lbs of energy. Some of the farthest runners have been the highest energy on target hit though.

 

[MTbackwoods]

I dont think all of this is that hard. Pick a bullet with correct constrhction for the game, sufficient sectional density for the penetration you need at close range, sufficient shape and velocity to have enough energy for the intended game at your max range, and keep your shooting didtance between the min and max operating range of the bullet. Then put it where it belongs and the next thing you will need is a knife. Every tjme.

But what is "enough" energy? Like bigngreen saw with his 22-250, at his 625 yard shot, that bullet had approximately 460 ft/lbs of energy. Did the antelope die? Yes it did. However I like to see them drop in their tracks. Now that doesn't necessarily mean dead in their tracks. But temporary incapacitation that would potentially bring the animal down long enough, to lose enough blood, that getting up and running is far less likely

 

[MTbackwoods]

Looking at my numbers probably 80% of the deer and antelope I've killed have been between 600 and 1000 ft lbs of energy. Some of the farthest runners have been the highest energy on target hit though.

Now there's a conversation worthy observation. Were the animals shot at closer range more on edge or more relaxed than the ones further out? Is the energy factor really not noteworthy then? I'd love to hear every detail you are willing to share

 

[Orange Dust]

But what is "enough" energy? Like bigngreen saw with his 22-250, at his 625 yard shot, that bullet had approximately 460 ft/lbs of energy. Did the antelope die? Yes it did. However I like to see them drop in their tracks. Now that doesn't necessarily mean dead in their tracks. But temporary incapacitation that would potentially bring the animal down long enough, to lose enough blood, that getting up and running is far less likely

That wont happen every time without either a cns hit or a gun that would normally be considered too big for the animal hunted.

 

[MTbackwoods]

That wont happen every time without either a cns hit or a gun that would normally be considered too big for the animal hunted.

I absolutely agree. But I can't help but wonder if there isn't a number out there where there is a decent probability of such an occurrence. I'll try to refrain from calling it any kind of "shock" since that word seems to be taboo

 

[imyourhuckleberry]

I absolutely agree. But I can't help but wonder if there isn't a number out there where there is a decent probability of such an occurrence. I'll try to refrain from calling it any kind of "shock" since that word seems to be taboo

Here is a link that you may find an interesting read.

Terminal Ballistics

 

[bigngreen]

Now there's a conversation worthy observation. Were the animals shot at closer range more on edge or more relaxed than the ones further out? Is the energy factor really not noteworthy then? I'd love to hear every detail you are willing to share

Hard to tell, the one antelope that I hammered with the 338 and sucked everything out of it's chest just got up from a nap and was stretching when I hit him, he was clueless yet ran!
I think getting some range and muzzle brake that cast the sound differently seems to help keep especially elk from going into flight mode, watching elk take a hit in the 6-800 yard range it just looks like you hammered them compared to close range higher energy hits.

I personally never want to see an animal drop, more wrecks happen especially with elk when they hit dirt and you find nothing when you get there. The vast majority of the elk I've seen lost have been the dropped in their tracks kind. You just don't know why they dropped, you may have severed their vertebra completely blowing bullet an bone through their lungs and your gtg BUT you could be two inches high and blew the top of the spine of and they will recover. When you can see where your bullet went and you have blood coming down the side and they are doing the Berger wobble when they go down they don't recover, you can walk to that spot and there will be dead elk.
I had a conversation with a vet I know about the cleanest way to kill and ideally we would effect all three areas, cns, blood pressure and air, most cns hits are not that lethal you'll have a lot of animal live for quite some time just paralyzed which I HATE, taking the air out only takes a large hole, I've seen cow elk tip over after 45 minutes from a 3/4 Barnes hole through them, it was just a lung hit. Blood pressure seems to be the quickest death. Personally my goal is to put a bullet that opens up and frags to some extent just over the heart quartering away, this shuts down the blood to everything and blows a large hole in the densest part of the lungs deflating them. This tends to not drop them but staggers them hard and they hold their feet long enough for me to know I put a lethal shot in them.

 

[Orange Dust]

You can do it on

I absolutely agree. But I can't help but wonder if there isn't a number out there where there is a decent probability of such an occurrence. I'll try to refrain from calling it any kind of "shock" since that word seems to be taboo

There are two ways to do it on whitetails. One way is with an impact velocity of over 4000fps in the ribs just above center. The other way is with a bullet 200grs or more started at least 3400 and the range kept under 400. Both of those will do the trick about every time. The latter cac tear them in half if you mess up and hit bone. On elk i would think you could do tge same with one of the cheytac based wildcats. Call Kirby Allen.

 

[FEENIX]

But I want DATA not opinions.

It's probably not what you want to hear but "IF" you are looking for data, esp. "empirical data", good luck with that.

However, you can compile the opinions/real-world personal experiences and synthesize the information being presented to you and use them to your advantage.

Good luck!

Ed

 

[MTbackwoods]

Hey I'll take a .408 Cheytac hunting any day. Weight be damned. I just can't afford the rifle nor the components to load for it lol. And that's quite the article huckleberry. I'll have to read it this evening when I have the time. I definitely don't like how it starts quoting data from the 1930's though. Bullets have come a long way since then... but maybe I'll learn something new or perhaps gain a new perspective. Thanks for the info

 

[AlphaDogs]

I'm still trying to get my head around even seeing 3 6x6 Elk at 600 yards.

And not being able to follow them.

That's why God made horses.

 

[MTbackwoods]

I'm still trying to get my head around even seeing 3 6x6 Elk at 600 yards.

And not being able to follow them.

That's why God made horses.

It was the true definition of heartbreak. We were at the edge of cover and couldn't make a move. And I was only about 18 or 19 at the time. Horses were a little out of my budget lol. None of them were giant bulls but I would have been elated to kill one regardless

 

[LongBomber]

I too am no physics guru but if a VLD bullet fragments and implodes internally as designed, the animal absorbed all of the energy. On the other hand, a solid mass of accubond that passed through has wasted energy that the animal did not absorb on impact.

It is true that a bullet exitting takes some energy with it, the question is how much? If it exits at 100fps or 1000fps it makes a big difference. One is 600ft-ibs one is next to nothing.
There is of course no way of testing that on an animal, but there has to be a way to come up with some good geralizations.

Also run the same bullet, lets say a 215 berger, at 30-06 speed or 300rum speed. The 300 could exit the far side and still transfer more energy into the animal.