Berger Prep for Terminal Performance

[IHFarmer07]

Incidentally, the Berger 6.5mm 156-grain EOL has a hybrid ogive. They are not VLDs. See https://bergerbullets.com/product/6-5-mm-156-grain-extreme-outer-limits-eol-elite-hunter/. And the Berger VLDs that I've shot into antelope, deer, and elk have always expanded rapidly on impact. They have never tumbled.

You quoted one of my posts that never mentioned anything that you commented on. Don't quite know what your point is here other than stating the obvious but, in this post another forum member and I were talking about using the nose ring tool on NON hunting(target) bullets to make them structurally weak to aid in expansion + aid in BC for hunting/targets. If you read through the posts in order you would figure that out.

Most here know the 156's aren't VLD's and bergers aren't designed to tumble.

 

[TxHeartShot]

First sentence of the original post specifically mentioned that this isn't the topic at hand here.

Not everyone can follow instructions...

 

[skipglo]

I guess I'm trying to figure out why you would buy a bullet you have to "fix"!
They make plenty of good hunting bullets.

X 2 on this!!!! Makes no sense to me either!

 

[CONatureBoy]

I'm not challenging you in any way, simply discussing, so please don't take offense. How do you know they did not tumble? Did you recover any bullets? I recovered one 6.5mm 140 VLD from a bull elk shot at 713 yards, and it was obvious it did not tumble as there was no damage to the rear of the bullet. However, other than recovering a bullet, after shooting many animals with monos, bonded, standard cup and core as well as bullets that are specifically designed to tumble, it is honestly hard to tell the difference in a wound channel from a tumbling bullet to a bullet that does not tumble.

6.5mm 140 VLD from a 6x6 bull at 713 yards - View attachment 438764

127 .277 bullet recovered from a cow elk shot at 680 yards, a bullet that is designed to tumble, and obviously did - View attachment 438765

Damage inside the animals were very similar, large amounts of damage throughout. The difference is the latter (a monolithic bullet) bullet penetrated nearly the entire length of a large cow elk. The Berger was hanging in the skin in the exit wound.

That's a great question. I see you're shooting lighter Bergers (140 grains) at bulls out to 700 yards. I think that's marginal bullet for that range. I shoot 210 VLDs or 230 OTMs out of my 300 RUM at bull elk. Cow elk maybe 180 or 190-grain Bergers from a 280 AI. I reserve the 156-grain 6.5 mm (264 Win Mag) for lighter game. I used to hunt with a 270. I have come to believe in overwhelming force.

In my experience there's not much left of a Berger bullet that hits an animal inside 500 yards. Lots of tiny pieces of metal, evidence of explosive impact. When they slow down enough, out towards the limits of my ability to shoot, I expect the front part of the bullet still fragments, and the rest tumbles. I haven't seen that. My longest shot to date was 611 yards with a drilled SMK on a cow elk. I didn't recover the bullet. (The elk dropped where it stood, and I saw good evidence of fragmentation while field dressing.) My longest shot with a Berger was an antelope at 525 yards. The bullet fragmentation was dramatic and obvious to the naked eye.

I think if you watch a few of Barbour Creek's gel-block tests of Berger bullets (usually at 600 yards), you'll realize that Bergers are highly frangible by design. They go in an inch or two, and then fragment violently, transferring all of their kinetic energy into the animal. (You can see the little bullet fragments in the gel block.) Once you've seen the insides of an animal shot with a Berger, there's no question of whether the bullet fragmented or tumbled. Bergers don't hang together well enough to tumble, except perhaps at very long range. Take a look at my gel-block picture earlier in this thread. It's obvious.

I load my long-distance rounds so they retain 1,500 ft-lbs of kinetic energy out to the maximum distance I'm willing to shoot at game. This is a widely published ethical minimum for elk (some folks say 1,000 ft-lbs for smaller game). My hope is that this much kinetic energy will drive a bullet to fragment, producing a quick kill. In my experience, fragmentation in the heart-lungs region is the best way to stop an animal right where you shoot it, and to produce a quick, humane kill.

 

[codyadams]

That's a great question. I see you're shooting lighter Bergers (140 grains) at bulls out to 700 yards. I think that's marginal bullet for that range. I shoot 210 VLDs or 230 OTMs out of my 300 RUM at bull elk. Cow elk maybe 180 or 190-grain Bergers from a 280 AI. I reserve the 156-grain 6.5 mm (264 Win Mag) for lighter game. I used to hunt with a 270. I have come to believe in overwhelming force.

In my experience there's not much left of a Berger bullet that hits an animal inside 500 yards. Lots of tiny pieces of metal, evidence of explosive impact. When they slow down enough, out towards the limits of my ability to shoot, I expect the front part of the bullet still fragments, and the rest tumbles. I haven't seen that. My longest shot to date was 611 yards with a drilled SMK on a cow elk. I didn't recover the bullet. (The elk dropped where it stood, and I saw good evidence of fragmentation while field dressing.) My longest shot with a Berger was an antelope at 525 yards. The bullet fragmentation was dramatic and obvious to the naked eye.

I think if you watch a few of Barbour Creek's gel-block tests of Berger bullets (usually at 600 yards), you'll realize that Bergers are highly frangible by design. They go in an inch or two, and then fragment violently, transferring all of their kinetic energy into the animal. (You can see the little bullet fragments in the gel block.) Once you've seen the insides of an animal shot with a Berger, there's no question of whether the bullet fragmented or tumbled. Bergers don't hang together well enough to tumble, except perhaps at very long range. Take a look at my gel-block picture earlier in this thread. It's obvious.

I load my long-distance rounds so they retain 1,500 ft-lbs of kinetic energy out to the maximum distance I'm willing to shoot at game. This is a widely published ethical minimum for elk (some folks say 1,000 ft-lbs for smaller game). My hope is that this much kinetic energy will drive a bullet to fragment, producing a quick kill. In my experience, fragmentation in the heart-lungs region is the best way to stop an animal right where you shoot it, and to produce a quick, humane kill.

I agree, I have used a lot of bergers, from the 140 out of a 6.5 up to a 300 from a .338 to take elk, and lots in between. My current elk rig is a 30 nosler with a 208 Berger. I have also used lots of monos. In the 6.5, I have used the 140 vld, 147 eldm, and 156 Berger. The closest elk I have killed with them is 610 yards, the farthest is 890, and surprisingly the only exits were with the 140 vld. Of the other bullets recovered, no evidence of tumbling was present. I haven't shot any gel blocks, but we have documented around 35-40 elk taken from 300-1036 yards, averagjng arojnd 800, with a lot of different bullets. It is obvious the Bergers are a fragmenting bullet, however at the lower impact velocities I typically use them at, they perform a lot like lots of standard, non bonded/partitioned cup and core bullets do at standard ranges. Before I started shooting long range, I used a lot of hornady core lockts, nosler ballistic tips and sierra game kings, and at sub 300 yards I typically used them at, they perform very similarly on game to bergers at range.

In our testing on pronghorn, we have somewhere around 100 speed goats we have taken with 6.5, .277, 7mm, .30 and .338 cal bergers. The 6.5 is by far my favorite on them, and my results from that has tempted me to build a 6mm for them, however shots often extend out to 800+ yards, and almost always have wind to consider, so I don't want to go too far down.

I used to look at ft lbs as my limiting factor, but have since modified that, I still reference it, but I pay more attention to impact velocity, and using the right bullet. For instance, if you solely go by ft-lbs, a 300 Berger out of a .338 still has 1500 ft-lbs when impact velocity is below 1600 fps. I have heard some say 1600 is the threshold for the bergers to expand, but I personally prefer a buffer, and try to keep it above 1800. I can also make 1500 ft-lbs with the 156 Berger out of a 6.5 at 2080 fps, and from my long barreled .260ai at the elevation I hunt, that means a 900 yard shot on an elk is within that range, so good to go right? (I have done it, you can, but it is not my preference) This is where the using the right bullet side comes into play.

Bottom line from my experience, is there is a very large depth and breadth to game terminal performance. And all of this isn't even taking into account the vast differences in monolithic style bullets! They are a different animal (not necessarily better, just different) and require different sets of parameters and limits. Lots of considerations, good thing we have options!

 

[CONatureBoy]

You quoted one of my posts that never mentioned anything that you commented on. Don't quite know what your point is here other than stating the obvious but, in this post another forum member and I were talking about using the nose ring tool on NON hunting(target) bullets to make them structurally weak to aid in expansion + aid in BC for hunting/targets. If you read through the posts in order you would figure that out.

Most here know the 156's aren't VLD's and bergers aren't designed to tumble.

Yeah, sorry, the web site did that. I was replying to your post about VLDs tumbling.

 

[CONatureBoy]

I agree, I have used a lot of bergers, from the 140 out of a 6.5 up to a 300 from a .338 to take elk, and lots in between. My current elk rig is a 30 nosler with a 208 Berger. I have also used lots of monos. In the 6.5, I have used the 140 vld, 147 eldm, and 156 Berger. The closest elk I have killed with them is 610 yards, the farthest is 890, and surprisingly the only exits were with the 140 vld. Of the other bullets recovered, no evidence of tumbling was present. I haven't shot any gel blocks, but we have documented around 35-40 elk taken from 300-1036 yards, averagjng arojnd 800, with a lot of different bullets. It is obvious the Bergers are a fragmenting bullet, however at the lower impact velocities I typically use them at, they perform a lot like lots of standard, non bonded/partitioned cup and core bullets do at standard ranges. Before I started shooting long range, I used a lot of hornady core lockts, nosler ballistic tips and sierra game kings, and at sub 300 yards I typically used them at, they perform very similarly on game to bergers at range.

In our testing on pronghorn, we have somewhere around 100 speed goats we have taken with 6.5, .277, 7mm, .30 and .338 cal bergers. The 6.5 is by far my favorite on them, and my results from that has tempted me to build a 6mm for them, however shots often extend out to 800+ yards, and almost always have wind to consider, so I don't want to go too far down.

I used to look at ft lbs as my limiting factor, but have since modified that, I still reference it, but I pay more attention to impact velocity, and using the right bullet. For instance, if you solely go by ft-lbs, a 300 Berger out of a .338 still has 1500 ft-lbs when impact velocity is below 1600 fps. I have heard some say 1600 is the threshold for the bergers to expand, but I personally prefer a buffer, and try to keep it above 1800. I can also make 1500 ft-lbs with the 156 Berger out of a 6.5 at 2080 fps, and from my long barreled .260ai at the elevation I hunt, that means a 900 yard shot on an elk is within that range, so good to go right? (I have done it, you can, but it is not my preference) This is where the using the right bullet side comes into play.

Bottom line from my experience, is there is a very large depth and breadth to game terminal performance. And all of this isn't even taking into account the vast differences in monolithic style bullets! They are a different animal (not necessarily better, just different) and require different sets of parameters and limits. Lots of considerations, good thing we have options!

I agree with your reasoning about speed contributing to opening up the bullet and getting it to fragment. For me that hasn't been the controlling factor, because I haven't mastered shooting beyond 600 yards. You're clearly a far more accomplished long-range hunter than I am. I aspire to make the sorts of shots that for you are evidently routine. I bow to your superior experience and expertise in that 600+ yards range.

I also used to hunt Nosler Ballistic Tips and similar bullets, when I mostly hunted inside 300 yards. I had the same experience with them. They mushroomed and tumbled, with the front part of the bullet tearing off and fragmenting. I really liked their performance (even on elk, shot well), and they were very forgiving to load (e.g. insensitive to seating depth). I wanted the higher BC for the longer shots.

Now I can shoot a drilled/trimmed 6.5 EOL at 3,150 fps at the muzzle, it'll drift a bit less than the 230 OTM from my RUM out to 1,000 yards, and I can hope the drilling will help it expand at the longer ranges. I built the rifle around that bullet, and I've been waiting to hunt it until I could be confident the bullet would expand at long(ish) range. Time to take it for a test drive!

 

[IHFarmer07]

Yeah, sorry, the web site did that. I was replying to your post about VLDs tumbling.

No problem. Lol still the wrong person on vlds tumbling.