Gary Morgan
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A very fine and innovative gunsmith who frequents this site told me that with my 300 RUM I should use the 200 grain Accubond from zero to 500 yards and the 210 grain Berger from 500 on.
Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets
- Thread starter jhlobik
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elkaholic
Well-Known Member
I pretty much agree with that statement as long as we realize that there is a point where the Berger fails to expand at all......Rich
Tumbleweed
Well-Known Member
If a person is never going to shoot past 500 yards, don't use Bergers, there's very little ballistic advantage compared to other premium bullets out to 500 yards. Although I will say that I have never seen such dramatic kills with any other bullets at any range than with Berger. Ballistically these bullets start to leave the others behind at 500. I am not a bit hesitant to use them at close range when the situation calls for it. I use 210 Bergers running 3100fps for elk and deer. My comfortable shooting range also extends to around 1200 yards on deer and about 1000 yards for elk in the right conditions with adequate bullet performance. I have used them at fairly close distances with great success. Blacktail deer at 380 yards, one shot behind shoulder fell dead in tracks. Bull elk at 150 yards, one shot behind shoulder walked about 10 yards, dead. Neither bullet exited, both bullets hit rib on the way in with massive internal damage- just what they are supposed to do. I am very, very pleased with all aspects of Berger VLD performance.
wvcountryboy
Well-Known Member
I may have an unpopular comment to some of you but its just my .02. I dont have any experience with the bergers yet (i plan to) but I have shot MANY deer with match kings and ballistic tip varmit bullets and sierra varminters. I am a fan of a fragmenting bullets. Some people will say they blow up on the hide, I can't argue that. But isnt that like holding a shotgun right on the hide? If a bullet has 3000 ft/lbs of energy at a given distance and the bullet is stopped inside the animal, that animal has just received 3000 ft/lbs of energy. If a bullet has 3000 ft/lbs of energy, epands to a dime sized mushroom and passes through, how much energy did the animal receive? 500?1000? I have never shot an elk but I shot a deer in the shoulder with a 250 match king under 300 yards. That bone just made more shrapnel and it took a hop and died in the air. I have seen deer run 100s of yards with perfectly placed partitions. I know an elk is much bigger, but if you hit one in the shoulder with a partition, accubond, or game king will it do much better?
With either type of bullet you can have an animal run. I just prefer the thin jacket myself. But then again, i hunt deer. We dont have elk.
With either type of bullet you can have an animal run. I just prefer the thin jacket myself. But then again, i hunt deer. We dont have elk.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
You are correct about the devastating killing ability of fragmenting bullets. The rub is, as you already suggested, an elk is a different critter. I did kill an elk at less than 100 yards with one of my bullets that are designed for long range. I INTENTIONALLY shot him 6" behind the shoulder to make sure I didn't hit the shoulder. He staggered backwards two steps and went down. If you shoot an elk quartering or even in the shoulder, sooner or later you WILL have problems.......Rich
LongBomber
Well-Known Member
I have no problem using bergers for hunting. Next season I will try out the 300 hybrid and see what she can do. I have seen 140's from a 260 reminton fail to penetrate from about 30 yards, point of the shoulder shot. The deer was finished of with a 308 shooting winchester grey box. But I have seen some serious bang-flops from other VLD shots. Put any bullet through the heart of a game animal and it will die - period.
However I do question people talking about how much energy is transfered to an animal with a pass through shot. Even on a pencil through the bullet will be significantly slowed. Due to the way energy is caculated the speed of a bullet has a drastic effect on the energy remaining. If a 165gr tsx exits a deer at 500fps who cares? It has less than 100ft-ibs left. Especially when it started with 2500ish when it hit. Even if it exited at 1000fps it would only have 370ft-ibs left. I read some testing with ballistics jelly, shooting through a 24" block if I remember right, with two chrony's set up. The remaining velocities and energies were so low that it would not matter one bit that all of the energy is not transfered.
I use accubonds and TSX for hunting but I would not think twice about using a berger. Just put it through the heart lungs from a reasonable angle.
However I do question people talking about how much energy is transfered to an animal with a pass through shot. Even on a pencil through the bullet will be significantly slowed. Due to the way energy is caculated the speed of a bullet has a drastic effect on the energy remaining. If a 165gr tsx exits a deer at 500fps who cares? It has less than 100ft-ibs left. Especially when it started with 2500ish when it hit. Even if it exited at 1000fps it would only have 370ft-ibs left. I read some testing with ballistics jelly, shooting through a 24" block if I remember right, with two chrony's set up. The remaining velocities and energies were so low that it would not matter one bit that all of the energy is not transfered.
I use accubonds and TSX for hunting but I would not think twice about using a berger. Just put it through the heart lungs from a reasonable angle.
I tried a Berger 115gr hunting VLD in my 25-06 this fall on a whitetail buck at 150 yards. He was walking and wouldn't stop after a couple of blats like they do on TV, I hit him a little farther back than desired in the liver/diaphram area.
He took a half a dozen sickly steps and slumped to the ground.
I found the blown jacket on the far side just under the hide, and pretty incredible internal damage.
Just wanted to share this for everyones information to help make up their own mind on bullet selection.
But I will try them again for deer.
He took a half a dozen sickly steps and slumped to the ground.
I found the blown jacket on the far side just under the hide, and pretty incredible internal damage.
Just wanted to share this for everyones information to help make up their own mind on bullet selection.
But I will try them again for deer.
mikebob
Well-Known Member
I have shot Barnes, Accubonds and about every other bullet out there. I think if you shoot enough you will have a miss-hap with all bullets. I shoot Bergers in most of my rifles now. I have never had a problem with them yet at close or far range.
I have watched Bergers and Scirroccos tested against cow bones at 15yrds and 700yrds on How to Shoot Beyond Belief. They tested as good if not better.
I think the people having trouble with them are shooting shots they shouldn't be making in the first place
If you shoot any bullet other than what is was designed for you are going to have problems. If you don't have good shot placement you are going to have problems with any bullet
I just watched Long Range Pursuits take an elk at 925yrds with a 6.5x284 140gr VLD Berger
Watched Best Of The West take just about every game animal including dangerous game in Africa with 168 and 180gr Berger VLD
I shot a boar in the shoulder 2yrs ago at 10 yards with my 300 Mag using a 210gr VLD @ 2850fp/s. It put a quarter size hole going in and a half dollar size hole exiting. I meant to shoot it behind the shoulder but I got to carried away and pulled it. (really I just got nervous because it was getting so close with those tusks and I didn't have a tree to climb into)
Pick a bullet you are confident in that will do the job and forget what anyone else says about it. Not any one bullet will make everyone happy with its performance. There are many great bullets on the market today and we need to shoot them all so we can keep manufactures producing them.
I have watched Bergers and Scirroccos tested against cow bones at 15yrds and 700yrds on How to Shoot Beyond Belief. They tested as good if not better.
I think the people having trouble with them are shooting shots they shouldn't be making in the first place
If you shoot any bullet other than what is was designed for you are going to have problems. If you don't have good shot placement you are going to have problems with any bullet
I just watched Long Range Pursuits take an elk at 925yrds with a 6.5x284 140gr VLD Berger
Watched Best Of The West take just about every game animal including dangerous game in Africa with 168 and 180gr Berger VLD
I shot a boar in the shoulder 2yrs ago at 10 yards with my 300 Mag using a 210gr VLD @ 2850fp/s. It put a quarter size hole going in and a half dollar size hole exiting. I meant to shoot it behind the shoulder but I got to carried away and pulled it. (really I just got nervous because it was getting so close with those tusks and I didn't have a tree to climb into)
Pick a bullet you are confident in that will do the job and forget what anyone else says about it. Not any one bullet will make everyone happy with its performance. There are many great bullets on the market today and we need to shoot them all so we can keep manufactures producing them.
300RUM LNGRNGE
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I don't know much about the bergers, that's why I am here reading all this stuff. I have shot and seen everything from whitetail at 50 yards to elk , sheep, and muley's shot at 500 yds. with Barnes triple shocks. All were shot with a 300RUM shooting 180 gr triple TTSX.
These bullets have always performed well. I shot an elk in the neck ( no not on purpose ) with this set-up at 460 yds and the devastation was impressive. No tracking on any of these animals.
I am a firm believer in this bullet , it performs period.
The issue I have with it is that I shoot a 300 RUM , a rifle that should be pushing that 180 gr bullet close to 3300 fps. but due to pressure issues, I have been forced to load down to 3050 fps. and was looking for a bullet that performs as well as the TTSX.
I have looked at the Nosler E-Tip ,the Accubond, and now the Berger.
I am not sold on anything yet and until I am will continue to shoot the Barnes. I have not seen enough on the Berger, to be convinced that the " hollow point" approach is the way to go.
The Accubond seems to be a slightly better typical lead core bullet, and I am not sure that the E-Tip is going to cure my pressure issues, though it does have a better Co-efficient.
Still confused.
These bullets have always performed well. I shot an elk in the neck ( no not on purpose ) with this set-up at 460 yds and the devastation was impressive. No tracking on any of these animals.
I am a firm believer in this bullet , it performs period.
The issue I have with it is that I shoot a 300 RUM , a rifle that should be pushing that 180 gr bullet close to 3300 fps. but due to pressure issues, I have been forced to load down to 3050 fps. and was looking for a bullet that performs as well as the TTSX.
I have looked at the Nosler E-Tip ,the Accubond, and now the Berger.
I am not sold on anything yet and until I am will continue to shoot the Barnes. I have not seen enough on the Berger, to be convinced that the " hollow point" approach is the way to go.
The Accubond seems to be a slightly better typical lead core bullet, and I am not sure that the E-Tip is going to cure my pressure issues, though it does have a better Co-efficient.
Still confused.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
With a 300 RUM, the accubonds are pretty tuff to beat out to 700 yards or so. The Scirocco is a great performing bullet "IF" you can get it to shoot accurately in your rifle.....Rich
300RUM LNGRNGE
Active Member
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I have a slight fear of a lead core bullet, question is , How do they perform on an marginal shot , say elk shoulder bone at 7 to 900 yards? I am hoping to be able to shoot at 1000yds, but mostly just to say I can.
leadchucker
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- Dec 7, 2010
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210gr bergers in my 300rum from 40 to 660yards on deer and moose have performed very well. a couple marginal shots in there as well. i punched the shoulder of my moose at 140 yards, internal damage was amazing. bang flop. i like em'.
I've broken alot of bone on animals with them in 130-160gr weights started at 3000-3200fps from various rifles and they have performed great. The penetration and devastation have both been impressive. The ones I've recovered from animals and the rocky ground behind my gong have all weighed real close to 60% of their original weight. A bullet that will retain 60% after hitting limestone is pretty tough.
extreme31
Member
First year using VLD's........When I grew up my father was not a handloader & during the process of him teaching me how to hunt he said "boy, for a hunting bullet you have to get winchester power points or remington core-lokt, these are the only bullet to use" Well needles to say that philosophy stuck with me for a good 25 years of my life in which time I killed several elk & an awful lot of mule deer. Though I can never really remember ever loosing an animal I can remember many times spending endless hours tracking animals since many of them ran for hundreds of yards before expiring or bedding down waiting for us to shoot them again. They've been around forever, are good stout bullets & they work.
Now on the other hand my recent experiences with the Berger is a different story entirely. After becoming a handloader & being overwhelmed with so many bullets to choose from it became a tough decision on what a guy should use thats for sure!
This year I hunted with a 6.5 x 284 with the 140 VLD running at 2930. I shot a black bear at 180 yards and her belly hit the ground in a nano second. The bullet entered high behind the shoulder & severed its spine in half. The fragmentation blasted down into her chest cavity turning everything into gooo.
I just shot a decent mule deer at 320 yards at a steep uphill angle & once again he dropped instantly but of course I severed his spine in half just like my earlier bear. (just discovered that my zero was 1.5 inch high at 100 & my scope objective has a rather good dent, note to self, don't drink so much while at hunt camp)
The impressive thing was that the entry hole was just a tiny little red bee sting seen just high & back behind the shoulder.
From looking at the inside of the chest cavity It appeared that it hit a rib square on, split into two main pieces. 1 piece went thru the far side of the spine & the other piece went thru the near side of it's spine leaving 2 quarter sized holes. One went up into it's neck & the other went down into the near side of the opposite shoulder. The top of it's lungs were pretty much non existent. As I peeled both shoulders, rib meat & back straps off I was utterly dumbfounded by the massive damage that this poor deer encountered! About 3 inches of 3 ribs on the entrance side was completely gone, the spine was cut in half & 3 of the large vertical ribs were blown off the top of the spine entirely. Good thing it was right were the back straps end & the neck meat begins as I only had to throw out some hamburger meat.
I recovered 3 pieces of that bullet, the big piece looked exactly like the one photo earlier in another post. The other two pieces were just tiny fragments. All combined it weighed 40 grains, including little bits of meat. I was truly impressed with the amount of bone damage for such a small frangible bullet! I know that elk bones are much larger but I do not believe that any elk rib bones could stop this bullet. A square on shoulder would be a different story but we shouldn't be shooting them there anyway!
Last year I took a nice WA state whitetail with a 180 nosler ballistic tip coming out of a 308 at just under 2600. I shot him square on the shoulder at 20 yards in heavy timber & it completely ripped his main upper shoulder bone in half sending some serious lead, brass & bone fragments thru his rib cage breaking several of them & then continued on into his vitals. It actually hit him so hard that it knocked him over backwards!!! And I've never seen that or so much energy transferred into animal ever before.
Obviously I don't have much experience with the explosive bullets over the years as I do the old stand by bonded bullets but as it stands now I will never use a lead tip bullet ever again! The frangible's just seem to be able to produce such a quick, clean & fast kill that puts critters out of their misery faster than you can jack another round in your chamber! We do owe them that. The only thing that sucks is I miss the thrill of following a blood trail!
Now on the other hand, no matter how I look at it or think about it any (key word here) proper placed bullet of almost any size, shape, or design will kill. Just don't be that guy that takes marginal shots, makes poor hits & then claims the bullet or caliber was at fault. I personally know someone that lost 2 medium sized whitetail deer to a 308 with 165 grain Remington bullets so the next year he was touting around a 300RUM & now he's thinking about getting a 338 for deer hunting cause he didn't have much luck with the 300 either.......... I know there is no such thing as "overkill" but we have to be realistic at some point.
Now on the other hand my recent experiences with the Berger is a different story entirely. After becoming a handloader & being overwhelmed with so many bullets to choose from it became a tough decision on what a guy should use thats for sure!
This year I hunted with a 6.5 x 284 with the 140 VLD running at 2930. I shot a black bear at 180 yards and her belly hit the ground in a nano second. The bullet entered high behind the shoulder & severed its spine in half. The fragmentation blasted down into her chest cavity turning everything into gooo.
I just shot a decent mule deer at 320 yards at a steep uphill angle & once again he dropped instantly but of course I severed his spine in half just like my earlier bear. (just discovered that my zero was 1.5 inch high at 100 & my scope objective has a rather good dent, note to self, don't drink so much while at hunt camp)
The impressive thing was that the entry hole was just a tiny little red bee sting seen just high & back behind the shoulder.
From looking at the inside of the chest cavity It appeared that it hit a rib square on, split into two main pieces. 1 piece went thru the far side of the spine & the other piece went thru the near side of it's spine leaving 2 quarter sized holes. One went up into it's neck & the other went down into the near side of the opposite shoulder. The top of it's lungs were pretty much non existent. As I peeled both shoulders, rib meat & back straps off I was utterly dumbfounded by the massive damage that this poor deer encountered! About 3 inches of 3 ribs on the entrance side was completely gone, the spine was cut in half & 3 of the large vertical ribs were blown off the top of the spine entirely. Good thing it was right were the back straps end & the neck meat begins as I only had to throw out some hamburger meat.
I recovered 3 pieces of that bullet, the big piece looked exactly like the one photo earlier in another post. The other two pieces were just tiny fragments. All combined it weighed 40 grains, including little bits of meat. I was truly impressed with the amount of bone damage for such a small frangible bullet! I know that elk bones are much larger but I do not believe that any elk rib bones could stop this bullet. A square on shoulder would be a different story but we shouldn't be shooting them there anyway!
Last year I took a nice WA state whitetail with a 180 nosler ballistic tip coming out of a 308 at just under 2600. I shot him square on the shoulder at 20 yards in heavy timber & it completely ripped his main upper shoulder bone in half sending some serious lead, brass & bone fragments thru his rib cage breaking several of them & then continued on into his vitals. It actually hit him so hard that it knocked him over backwards!!! And I've never seen that or so much energy transferred into animal ever before.
Obviously I don't have much experience with the explosive bullets over the years as I do the old stand by bonded bullets but as it stands now I will never use a lead tip bullet ever again! The frangible's just seem to be able to produce such a quick, clean & fast kill that puts critters out of their misery faster than you can jack another round in your chamber! We do owe them that. The only thing that sucks is I miss the thrill of following a blood trail!
Now on the other hand, no matter how I look at it or think about it any (key word here) proper placed bullet of almost any size, shape, or design will kill. Just don't be that guy that takes marginal shots, makes poor hits & then claims the bullet or caliber was at fault. I personally know someone that lost 2 medium sized whitetail deer to a 308 with 165 grain Remington bullets so the next year he was touting around a 300RUM & now he's thinking about getting a 338 for deer hunting cause he didn't have much luck with the 300 either.......... I know there is no such thing as "overkill" but we have to be realistic at some point.
