Berger bullet no expansion...why?

[earl1704]

30-06, Nosler case, 52.2 gr. H4350 powder, Berger 185 gr. VLD Hunting Bullet, GM210M primer.
Bull elk 293 yds. first 3 shots gut shot (make the boy scout sign with your hand and the 3 raised fingers are how close the shots impacted the elk). 1 shot unknown impact.
I knew (assumed) the elk was hit because his head kept drooping, we saw no blood and the elk did not flinch just stood there when hit. After waiting about 45 min. approached the elk who had walked about 100 yds. and sat down. Elk stood up and moved at a trot away, took 2 more shots from 50 yds. before he went down for good. Total of 5 shots I know hit the elk. One probably hit but can't confirm.
With the hide removed I found shots stacked as stated above (three fingers) in the ribs on the impact side, on the opposite side a small chip 1/4 inch out of the rib area where one bullet nicked the rib, small blood shot area of about 2 to 3 inches for each exit wound. That is blood, the exit hole had closed up around blood shot area.
All bullets were pass through shots NO EXPANSION.............ran a metal detector over the carcass one copper jacket (39.1 gr.) only found on opposite impact side between the hide and ribs.
No heart lung damage I could find, I assume the last 2 shots went through the heart lung area although I could not find the entrance or exit wound (really thick hair) some blood shot area in the assumed exit side of the front chest after hide was removed. I know this took him down since he fell immediately after 6th shot.

What the heck happened! Anyone with thoughts (other than my bad first 3 shot placement)?
Why no expansion, the shots were like running a pencil through the elk? No internal damage found just entrance and exit areas. Why no expansion need to figure this out..........................Thanks, Earl

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

Well only a few answers, bullet jacket too thick, no opening on bullet tip, not enough velocity to cause mushrooming, managed to pass through all soft tissue, no bone contact, take your pick or add a few more...who knows how many apply. I use the old fashion partitions, in 40+ years I've never had a problem.

 

[cowboy]

No one can give you an answer that you will be satisfied with - not even the people in charge at Berger. Been there - done that. There are a number of threads relating to the Berger myth of not performing the way they were intended. Use the search button and you will see you are not the first person to be concerned or ask about this situation.

The latest I have read/heard out of the Berger camp is they can not duplicate these type of happenings, are/have hired a materials engineer to see if there is something in their system that may cause this myth, developing a new testing lab etc., etc.and are very concerned when these type happenings are reported.

Send me a PM with your email address and I will give you my opinion documented with a couple of pictures of retrieved bullet that may help you develop your own opinion on what may have happened or what you might consider doing in the future.

Generally speaking these type of questions on an open forum become a pizzing contest, the OP is hammered, the manufacturer or product is either run down or criticized, or you will get the "I have used them for years, killed a zillion animals and never had a failure".

 

[roninflag]

my experience - of the several i have shot or seen shot they go in 2"- 4" and come a apart. 210 berger, 168, 140, 87 . little penetration. do not pass through only flecs and pieces. they do work. makes me nervous if i ever got anything but a broadside shot.

 

[jreagle]

no flames or blames here; just a thought though and you may already have considered this........ one thing i noticed when seating the long nose bullets is that the tip is deformed, (hollow point is closed up some or all the way), when seating the bullet with a standard seater. It seems that most seaters arent deep enough to accommodate the long nose of the bullet. Most die mfgrs make a vld seater that you can procure. This has solved the problem of deformed tips in my case.

 

[bigngreen]

30-06, Nosler case, 52.2 gr. H4350 powder, Berger 185 gr. VLD Hunting Bullet, GM210M primer.
Bull elk 293 yds. first 3 shots gut shot (make the boy scout sign with your hand and the 3 raised fingers are how close the shots impacted the elk). 1 shot unknown impact.
I knew (assumed) the elk was hit because his head kept drooping, we saw no blood and the elk did not flinch just stood there when hit. After waiting about 45 min. approached the elk who had walked about 100 yds. and sat down. Elk stood up and moved at a trot away, took 2 more shots from 50 yds. before he went down for good. Total of 5 shots I know hit the elk. One probably hit but can't confirm.
With the hide removed I found shots stacked as stated above (three fingers) in the ribs on the impact side, on the opposite side a small chip 1/4 inch out of the rib area where one bullet nicked the rib, small blood shot area of about 2 to 3 inches for each exit wound. That is blood, the exit hole had closed up around blood shot area.
All bullets were pass through shots NO EXPANSION.............ran a metal detector over the carcass one copper jacket (39.1 gr.) only found on opposite impact side between the hide and ribs.
No heart lung damage I could find, I assume the last 2 shots went through the heart lung area although I could not find the entrance or exit wound (really thick hair) some blood shot area in the assumed exit side of the front chest after hide was removed. I know this took him down since he fell immediately after 6th shot.

What the heck happened! Anyone with thoughts (other than my bad first 3 shot placement)?
Why no expansion, the shots were like running a pencil through the elk? No internal damage found just entrance and exit areas. Why no expansion need to figure this out..........................Thanks, Earl

Good on you for sticking on the elk till the end, and I applaud the wanting to figure it out instead of just ******* about it on the internet!!

One thing you have to think about with an open tip type bullet is they do not open by pushing back the tip and mushrooming, they hydraulic pressure the tip open exposing larger and larger surface area.
Number one is to make sure your using the Hunting not Match, there are some particular Match or OTM bullets that are awesome for hunting but you have to approach it on a case by case basis IMO.
Having open tips is essential to their performance, so tips being deformed during seating or in a carry case are suspect, I also am starting to wonder about tip deformation when loading from the mag.
Tip blockage can also cause the issue, one day I looked at the little foam liner in my carry case and you could see that the tips of the bullets were cutting out little pieces of foam and I found some tips with foam packed in them, found it before I shot anything with them though.
We inspect the tips of the bullets we use both visually and with a small pin drill just to make sure the tip is open to the lead. In a pile of animals taken with the Bergers we've seen ONE 210 not open and it was a hit back, the most solid thing it hit was the hide and it was before we inspected tips but it did make use pause and start looking and testing.
My experience has been more positive with the Berger or similar bullet than any other bullet I've shot, that's why many of us shoot them, has NOTHING to do with the name on the box but performance on the game we take.
You are one of the first guys I've seen looking to figure it out instead of just acting like everyone who uses them in stupid or Koolaid drinkers which is why I think you'll get a lot of positive help from those with a lot of experience with successfully using them!!

 

[Pdvdh]

This is how I modify the tips of Berger VLD, Hybrid, and OTM bullets, in the effort to help ensure each bullet will expand on game. The bullet on top is a 168gr 7mm Berger VLD. The bullet on the bottom is a 210gr .308 Berger VLD.

I modify the tips using the MCR Meplat Unforming Tool. Montour County Rifles

Most important in my opinion, is the use of the hollow-pointing - countersinking end mill/tool. This tool flares the interior of the tips of the jackets. It thins down the thickness at the leading edge of the jackets, but more importantly to my way of thinking, creates a larger diameter entrance to capture hydraulic pressure from meat/liquids as the bullet impacts the game animals.

Some in the past have stated don't mess with the tips. Now most say to ensure the tips are open. If you believe the tip configuration is an important aspect of bullet expansion, then my question is, why would anyone conclude that the non-uniform tips from the factory couldn't be improved upon with consistently uniform tips of a slightly different configuration?

We shoot only 1-4 large game animals a year with these bullets, normally speaking. I don't have extensive experience to proclaim these modified tips are the holy grail. Perhaps 8 of these bullets have impacted large game (dall sheep or caribou) over the past three years and all bullets expanded with soft tissue impacts - normally broadside thru the ribs. All I've read and learned about bullet expansion and bullet tip design tells me that modifying the tips in this fashion will enhance the odds that these bullets will expand on game animals - compared to the factory tips.

Why did I start modifying bullet tips like this? Already had the non-expanding experience. Looking to minimize the odds of a repeat performance.

 

[bob4]

This is how I modify the tips of Berger VLD, Hybrid, and OTM bullets, in the effort to help ensure each bullet will expand on game. The bullet on top is a 168gr 7mm Berger VLD. The bullet on the bottom is a 210gr .308 Berger VLD.

I modify the tips using the MCR Meplat Unforming Tool. Montour County Rifles

Most important in my opinion, is the use of the hollow-pointing - countersinking end mill/tool. This tool flares the interior of the tips of the jackets. It thins down the thickness at the leading edge of the jackets, but more importantly to my way of thinking, creates a larger diameter entrance to capture hydraulic pressure from meat/liquids as the bullet impacts the game animals.

Some in the past have stated don't mess with the tips. Now most say to ensure the tips are open. If you believe the tip configuration is an important aspect of bullet expansion, then my question is, why would anyone conclude that the non-uniform tips from the factory couldn't be improved upon with consistently uniform tips of a slightly different configuration?

We shoot only 1-4 large game animals a year with these bullets, normally speaking. I don't have extensive experience to proclaim these modified tips are the holy grail. Perhaps 8 of these bullets have impacted large game (dall sheep or caribou) over the past three years and all bullets expanded with soft tissue impacts - normally broadside thru the ribs. All I've read and learned about bullet expansion and bullet tip design tells me that modifying the tips in this fashion will enhance the odds that these bullets will expand on game animals - compared to the factory tips.

Why did I start modifying bullet tips like this? Already had the non-expanding experience. Looking to minimize the odds of a repeat performance.

I'd like to see a before and after if I could.

 

[Pdvdh]

I'd like to see a before and after if I could.

IF I had any "before" bullets, I'd be glad to post a picture for the comparison. When I said I use the MCR tool on my Berger bullets I meant it! ALL of them.

So every Berger bullet in my reloading room has already had its tip meplat uniformed (tips shaved / cut back a small distance to a consistent length, and a slightly increased outer diameter). After cutting the tips back to a uniform length and slightly larger outer diameter (OD), the tips are then countersunk with the MCR hollow-pointing / countersinking tool.

Here are some outer diameter (OD) dimensions from the tips of 4 different Berger bullets I've prepared with the MCR tool:

300gr .338 OTMs: _ 0.071" OD
215gr .308 Hybrids: 0.072" OD
210gr .308 VLD: _ _ 0.064" OD
168gr .284 VLD: _ _ 0.061" OD

Here's a photo of all four bullets - .338 at top down to .284 at bottom - taken with a macro lens in order to provide a better view of the modified tips. The white powder on the bullets is hexagonal boron nitride (HBN).

Now that I examine my own photo, it looks as though I could countersink the tips on the 300gr .338 and the 215gr .308 bullets a little more to increase the inside diameter of the mouth of the tips, in order to present a slightly larger catcher's mitt. There's some excess jacket material at the tips that could be reduced in thickness without expanding the OD of those two bullets.

You could surely find some photos of the unadulterated factory tips on Berger bullets by searching online.

 

[bob4]

Thanks for that. I have some 270's and 308's.

 

[branwill25]

IF I had any "before" bullets, I'd be glad to post a picture for the comparison. When I said I use the MCR tool on my Berger bullets I meant it! ALL of them.

So every Berger bullet in my reloading room has already had its tip meplat uniformed (tips shaved / cut back a small distance to a consistent length, and a slightly increased outer diameter). After cutting the tips back to a uniform length and slightly larger outer diameter (OD), the tips are then countersunk with the MCR hollow-pointing / countersinking tool.

Here are some outer diameter (OD) dimensions from the tips of 4 different Berger bullets I've prepared with the MCR tool:

300gr .338 OTMs: _ 0.071" OD
215gr .308 Hybrids: 0.072" OD
210gr .308 VLD: _ _ 0.064" OD
168gr .284 VLD: _ _ 0.061" OD

Here's a photo of all four bullets - .338 at top down to .284 at bottom - taken with a macro lens in order to provide a better view of the modified tips. The white powder on the bullets is hexagonal boron nitride (HBN).

Now that I examine my own photo, it looks as though I could countersink the tips on the 300gr .338 and the 215gr .308 bullets a little more to increase the inside diameter of the mouth of the tips, in order to present a slightly larger catcher's mitt. There's some excess jacket material at the tips that could be reduced in thickness without expanding the OD of those two bullets.

You could surely find some photos of the unadulterated factory tips on Berger bullets by searching online.

Hello, I was wondering what effect doing this has on BC? I have used 6.5mm 140 HVLD's on quite a bit of game with no issue. I guess I am on of the lucky ones. I hope the OP can get some closure to this. Look on the bright side, at least it didn't get away! Thanks

 

[Pdvdh]

Probably reduces the bullet BC value by 2-4%. But it results in improved bullet to bullet BC value consistency. Less BC value variance from bullet to bullet, because each bullet tip is as close to exactly (within my ability to measure with 0.001" calipers) the same size/diameter/shape/dimension as you'll ever get them.

Of course the affect on bullet BC value depends on the OD the bullet tips are trimmed back to. The countersinking and ID have no affect on bullet BC value, provided the bullet OD isn't increased. I've settled on a 0.070" bullet meplat OD for the time being.

IF I were to trim the bullet tips back to an OD of 0.100", I think they would expand even more reliably, however the BC values would start to be reduced much more significantly. I've settled on the 0.070" OD as a compromise, based on what I've read at this web site: Berger VLD annealing tutorial

 

[earl1704]

I understand the intellectual pursuit of a better bullet but I am looking at a 400 yds maximum shot for my rifle and myself. I don't want to buy a coffee machine and then need to change the extension cord and heating element to get it to heat coffee. I expect a top quality (Berger) bullet to work as advertised without the need to rework it to get it to do what it is supposed to do already. If I were shooting 800 yds the extra details (meplat) would be addressed.
However; Double checked my bullets Hunting VLD's Lot # 8233
Hollow points not pinched shut or clogged.
Brian Litz's books Applied Ballistics and Accuracy and Precision call for checking the evidence, the evidence in this case does not bear out Bergers claims of a superior hunting bullet. If I shoot a bullet in Idaho but the bullet preforms/expands differently in Montana there is no way I can base a hunt on that. Maybe it will expand maybe it wont?

Thanks for the input but after reading your reply's its time to look for a different hunting bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

Yeah, I hear ya. Never expected my approach would necessarily be one that you, or anyone else would embrace. I'm preparing these bullets for ranges from ~400 to ~1000yds. The 210 VLD that didn't expand on my dall ram was at a distance of ~325yds.

I believe the majority of Berger bullets do expand. I'd like all of them to expand, and you've seen what I'm doing to improve those odds.

I've had Nosler Ballistic Tips fail to expand also. One at 12yds and another a ~225yds. Just because you select another brand/model hunting bullet doesn't mean you won't suffer another disappointment. The best you can hope for is to reduce those disappointments based on your bullet selection, shot distance, impact velocity, and point of aim.

If you will only shoot game at distances less than 400yds, then one bullet that rarely fails to expand is the Nosler Partition. The BC value won't be as high as with the Bergers and some other brands/model bullets. And the accuracy won't normally be quite as good. But both accuracy and BC value will be plenty sufficient out to 400 yds for large game-sized animals. The Nosler Partition bullets are as well proven as any hunting bullet ever manufactured for close to medium range impacts. Their track record is stellar.