Bear spray vs Bullets

[WildRose]

It's funny how this subject always draws out a lot of "passionate "discussion".

When I first got to Montana many years ago, I bought a Ruger Redhawk 41 (beautiful gun, loved it) for the express purpose of bear defense while fishing in Griz country, usually the Dearborn River on the Eastern Front. I lived n Great Falls then. Walking through thick willows in Griz country can be a little un-nerving. The 41 made me feel better.

The more time I spent in bear country, the less nervous I became, and over the years I spent a good deal of time in bear country, especially in the Beartooths, Absorkees, Gallatins and Madison ranges after I moved to Bozeman. Most of the time I did not carry gun or spray and had numerous encounters with bears usually at a comfortable distance, especially when fishing in the Park (Yellowstone).

One interesting encounter happened while I was fishing, hiking up stream on the Yellowstone from Tower Falls in YNP back country. Wasn't carrying anything but my fly rod and my head was down on the trail when all of a sudden I saw a dark blur go by me on my left. It was about a 200 lb blackie in full gallop that passed about 20' to my left. I have fished slough creek quite a bit and about half my trips up there I see bears, sometimes multiple. After a while I decided maybe I should carry some protection as the odds might catch up to me someday. (And BTW, I have had as many or more bear encounters in my back yard as I have in the back country.)

Well back then you could not carry firearms in the park so I got some bear spray. Ok, so reading through this thread so far I have not noticed anyone making the distinction between different types of spray. There is a huge difference. UDAP and Counter Assault are more of a vapor than a spray and they get into your breathing passages and lungs, and mess you up big time. I know this because I tested UDAP myself once. On a calm day I squeezed the trigger for less than half a second and in less than half a second it shot out a burst that went about 30' and was about 6-8' in diameter. Just then a very light breeze started blowing it back in my direction so I retreated until the orange cloud disappeared. Then I walked back to the spot where I originally discharged it. Although I no longer saw any sign of it, I started choking and gagging and became nauseous. I felt very crappy for a couple of hours. These sprays are totally different than the sprays that are basically skin irritants. For any of you that have been through tear gas training (I have), I would say it was similar to that but a good bit more intense. A few years ago, some high school kid thought he would have some fun and discharged some UDAP into the bleachers of a football game. Several people were taken the the ER of the hospital.

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.

Some fair points but humans are not bears and there are lots of humans fighting their way through tazers and various types of pepper spray to carry on an attack.

One very fair point is that folks like yourself who have so many bear encounters they are common learn to read bears and know when you are in danger and how to react to avoid ending up on the bad side of a bear encounter.

I had several bear encounters in NM and CO but that was over 30 years ago and the majority of those venturing into bear country on out of state hunts probably have considerably less experience with them than I do.

My level of comfort with putting my life in the hands of a can of bear spray extends only so far as me having a gun backing up someone else with bear spray LOL.

Throughout my life and career both in the military and as a guide has I've always had the mindset of being very pro active when it comes to defense and the means I'm most trained, practiced, and prepared to defend myself and others is with a firearm.

I realize that in most bear/human encounters no one is in any real danger but if things should go bad I'll bet my life on my ability with a firearm before I'll bet it on a spray can. Even if I have a misfire with my firearm, I'll have four more shots rapidly firing. If the can fails me and I don't have a firearm I'm just bait!

It also comes down to the 21' Rule. As much faster than humans as bears are let's cut that down to the 10' rule. At ten feet if I have both a can of bear spray and a firearm, what are the odds I'll live long enough uninjured to pull and fire my pistol if the can fails on the first attempt?

I'm too old to be brave and I'm to slow to outrun anyone much less a bear so I'll be standing my ground or backing off slowly in any encounter. That of course also figures into my "what to do equation" should such an encounter turn out badly.

 

[WildRose]

I hear ya. My selection of revolver for bear protection is, admittedly, a compromise. I selected a compact revolver I knew I'd be willing to carry all of the time, rather than a larger revolver that I'd leave at the house. Because I used to own a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with, as I recall, a 5 1/2" barrel. It was enough larger in size and weight that I found myself leaving it at the house, rather than holstering it and carrying it. This Ruger Alaskan is so compact that I'm willing to strap it on nearly 100% of the time I don't have a long arm for defense. And this is quite often - every time I walk away from the house for a hike/exercise. This is why I stated the weapon I have with me is more valuable than the weapon left at the house.

I would always rather have a short barreled Remington 870 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs to stop a 1000lb boar. I have three 870s, but I won't always carry one. I find that I do carry this compact Ruger Alaskan revolver.

That's pretty much right where I am with my little 425's. They made a few of them in Titanium that are if I remember right four or six ounces lighter and if I ever come across one and have extra cash in hand you can bet I'll be the proud new owner of one.

Fit with a handgun is something I can't explain well but if you handle enough of them you find that some just melt into your hand and you can be extremely accurate with it when you will be marginal at best with many others.

For me the 425's are the former rather than the latter. I can shoot a pistol fairly well but I'm not what I'd consider to be a great shot by any means but with the 425 for some odd reason I really can't explain I just naturally shoot it extremely well especially under pressure.

I do shoot it's big brothers very well but unless I'm expressly going "handgun hunting" I just don't want to carry them around and I cannot handle them from waist to shot anywhere nearly as quickly.

Balance, weight, sight radius and fit just happen to all come together just right with them for me and it's light enough and short enough it's no burden at all to carry even when I"m otherwise packing a load.

Seeing how well it has handled several very large hogs I'm confident that if I'm closing in on arm's reach with a bear it'll be enough to get the job done as well.

 

[hhack]

The research that I have seen on the subject on bear spray being better than firearms is a joke. In the fact that there is no scientific objectivity to it. The research I reviewed the researcher used reported bear encounters. So every encounter he looked at was based on cases that were reported to authorities. Most of the reported firearm cases that he covered were bears coming to hunter kills. The spray encounters were usually hikers making chance encounters bumping bears or coming between mother and cubs. Already you can see this research is apples to oranges.

One scenario a bear is defensive or curious, the other aggressive and hungry. The other big issue is when you use a spray to deter a bear people are more likely to report it, when you use a firearm to stop a bear most people will not report a successful warning shots. So now you have some windbag with a doctorates degree telling everyone what to use.

Does bear spray work yes there is a lot of scientifically based research and first hand instances that show that it can be effective. Is it better than a firearm, it can be depending on the user. If your not a comfortable using a firearm use spray. I personally worry that spray may become less effective over time, repeat offenders could develop immunity or tolerance to spray. I have a few other worries about sprays effectiveness in certain situations, but if that's is what you feel most comfortable with then pack it.

The most important thing to me is to understand the weapon you are using, strengths vs weakness and use your awareness to keep your system at an advantage. I personally picked the glock 20. I am a better shot with a relatively lightweight semi auto than any revolver. A handgun is a bare minimum that I carry. If I am on horseback the I'll bring a rifle or short barreled shotgun.

 

[rooster740]

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.

I am not sure you realize how bad I want that ThunderBeast 30-p1! I am sure that I am not as tough as a few years ago when I ate my MRE out of a puke bag in the bird to make poags really puke, then jumped out of airplanes, and humped rucksacks that were half my weight for miles!

 

[Wyodog]

Hhack you make some good points. If I shot a grizzly I would be reluctant to report it for fear that I would get in trouble.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I am not sure you realize how bad I want that ThunderBeast 30-p1! I am sure that I am not as tough as a few years ago when I ate my MRE out of a puke bag in the bird to make poags really puke, then jumped out of airplanes, and humped rucksacks that were half my weight for miles!

Ya know, you have to be able to see the can in my hand in order to grab it... if you even make it that far... you might want to do a trial run first <grin>

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hhack you make some good points. If I shot a grizzly I would be reluctant to report it for fear that I would get in trouble.

If you kil a griz in Montana you better be able to "prove" it was in self defense. I remember one rancher on the Eastern front back almost 30 years ago shot a griz and claimed it was self defense. FWP took blood samples and said there wasn't enough adrenaline in the blood of the dead bear to show self defense. He was fine $15K and lost hunting privileges for a few years. Total BS. That was about the time I starting packing a 41 in that country.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Some fair points but humans are not bears and there are lots of humans fighting their way through tazers and various types of pepper spray to carry on an attack.

Yup, this is true, but these are human type sprays. The sprays I'm talking about are illegal to be used on humans and I can pretty much guarantee ya that no person is going to fight their way through products like UDAP. It will incapacitate you. All I can say is get a can and have someone give you a shot at 20' away. You will understand what I am talking about. I will never do it again, once is enough for me.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The research that I have seen on the subject on bear spray being better than firearms is a joke. In the fact that there is no scientific objectivity to it. The research I reviewed the researcher used reported bear encounters. So every encounter he looked at was based on cases that were reported to authorities. Most of the reported firearm cases that he covered were bears coming to hunter kills. The spray encounters were usually hikers making chance encounters bumping bears or coming between mother and cubs. Already you can see this research is apples to oranges.

One scenario a bear is defensive or curious, the other aggressive and hungry. The other big issue is when you use a spray to deter a bear people are more likely to report it, when you use a firearm to stop a bear most people will not report a successful warning shots. So now you have some windbag with a doctorates degree telling everyone what to use.

Does bear spray work yes there is a lot of scientifically based research and first hand instances that show that it can be effective. Is it better than a firearm, it can be depending on the user. If your not a comfortable using a firearm use spray. I personally worry that spray may become less effective over time, repeat offenders could develop immunity or tolerance to spray. I have a few other worries about sprays effectiveness in certain situations, but if that's is what you feel most comfortable with then pack it.

The most important thing to me is to understand the weapon you are using, strengths vs weakness and use your awareness to keep your system at an advantage. I personally picked the glock 20. I am a better shot with a relatively lightweight semi auto than any revolver. A handgun is a bare minimum that I carry. If I am on horseback the I'll bring a rifle or short barreled shotgun.

Every bear encounter is unique so it's hard to draw "scientific conclusions" That said, bears, especially larger bears sometimes take more than one shot to stop. I am very familiar with guns and a fairly good shot. I have dropped a few speed goats in an all out sprint (about 50-60 mph) with my rifle and got my expert ribon for small arms... not all that hard to get. Never shot competition and I'm sure there are a lot of guys better than me. Anyway, I think a charging bear would be a challenging shot shot for most anyone. I think directing a cloud of spray would be easier to get on target. Yeah, in a windy situation, things could get screwed up a little. Both have their ups and downs but overall "I" think that I am better off with spray. YMMV

 

[WildRose]

Yup, this is true, but these are human type sprays. The sprays I'm talking about are illegal to be used on humans and I can pretty much guarantee ya that no person is going to fight their way through products like UDAP. It will incapacitate you. All I can say is get a can and have someone give you a shot at 20' away. You will understand what I am talking about. I will never do it again, once is enough for me.

I know that but you are missing the point. Bears are a hell of a lot tougher than humans.

 

[HARPERC]

A lot of variables on the bear side of the equation. Age, gender, intent, time of year, and individual personality, or mood of the bear.

There are a couple of video's showing bears turned by muzzle blast alone. A recent one (Eastman's I think) A sow with cubs charges the raft, and a round in the water turns her. Cubs had already cleared the area so her job was complete.

An old boar, recently beat up, hungry, desperate for calories pre-hibernation, in a do or die predatory attack-is a different animal, and you better kill it. Banging on pots and pans, may work one day not another.

An attack like Treadwell experienced lasted awhile. A bear shot, but not stopped, may bleed out enough to take a dirt nap before killing you, or someone else in the party.

Personally, if the situation permits, my threat zone starts farther out than spray is good for.

 

[Wyodog]

Which ever method you chose to protect yourself is only going to work is you have it ready and available. I want to know how some of you carry your weapon while backpacking. It doesn't make sense to have it in our on your pack if your not wearing your pack but a holster and a back pack seems awkward.

 

[Timber338]

I attach my holster to the webbing on the outside of the hip belt of my frame pack.

 

[jmden]

Use a holster with a paddle attachment so it can quickly be moved from pack hip belt to my side when I'm not packing while on a backpack trip.

Had an occasion to fire a warning shot at (near--although I would've like to put it elsewhere) a wolf a little over a year ago while solo backpack elk hunting who suddenly showed up in my path about 40-50 yards or so away stopped and looking at me and, yes, he'd spotted me first. Without going into the whole story, in a split second, given my situation and surroundings, it became apparent to me that he, and if any of his pals were around, needed to leave quickly. Don't usually hunt with a sidearm, but knew I was in wolf country and was glad I had 15 highly potent rounds in that pistol.

Haven't see wolf spray on the market, but if someone invents it, it should include big chunks of lead and copper...oh, wait...