Bear spray vs Bullets

[WildRose]

I carry a glock 23 40s&w which I shoot really really good. I have fmj loaded in bear country. I also have a s&w 686 plus seven shot 357 that is a great shooter. I have a 44 that I can not shoot for crap! It is too much for me, I figure bullets in the brain pan are better then misses!
A 400-500 pound grizzly is huge where I am.

You should take a look at the Double Tap DT Hunter 200gr JHP's. 1100fps from a 4.5" Barrel. Very good penetration and good expansion. I've taken 3 deer and several big hogs with them and big hogs are tough to bring down.

 

[Pdvdh]

You're tougher than I am! I've shot a friends "Linebaugh Special" a few times and that's about as much handgun as I want to fire with less than an 8" Barrel and comp.

I doubt it. I just decided the firearm I have with me is better than the one left at the house, and this firearm is so compact that I don't hesitate to carry it whenever I'm not carrying a long arm. That's really my sole use of this revolver. Whenever I step out a door, I'm in bear country. The 2 1/2" barrel kicks less than revolvers with longer barrels (non-compensated barrels) due to less muzzle velocity. I shoot 335gr hard cast lead bullets @1200fps MV. Lots of penetration. A 5" barrel would shoot them at 1400-1500fps. More MV = more recoil force.

If you listen to Greg Brush's interview, he says he has no memory of recoil or muzzle blast. None. Similar to others' reports with firearms in life & death self defense. Greg remembers firing his revolver, but he's fuzzy on whether he broke the bear's neck with his 3rd shot or 4th shot. All shots were fired from hip level, two-handed grip on the revolver. It was over in seconds.

I wish my factory barrel was 3 1/2" long. The revolver would still be plenty compact, and the extra MV and sighting length would be nice. I'm tempted to swap mine out for a .454 Ruger Redhawk with a longer barrel, and then have the barrel cut back to 3 1/2".

Other than working up loads measuring MV with some different powders, testing function, and making sure my bear defense bullets don't jump their crimps under recoil, I haven't shot further full power loads for practice. I have some reduced loads, 250gr Hornady jacketed hollow points, for home protection and practice.

I've seen people hauling around .500 S&Ws. They're huge and heavy. Might as well carry a short-barreled shotgun with Brenneke slugs.

 

[Timber338]

I think Griz is in a league of it's own when comparing them to black bears. at least in my mind.

There's no Griz in Colorado but I still carry a Ruger 44 mag, but I admit just for fun.

If I were smart I would carry either a 10mm Glock, or a smaller sized 357 magnum to save weight. Either of those are plenty for a black bear.

 

[scf]

Like Phorwath I have a Ruger Alaskan in 454. No bears around here so I am no expert but the 320 grain Belt Mountain punch bullets I use give great penetration. I have the Alaskan for hog hunting in East Tennessee and carry it in a pancake holster made for it by Simply Rugged. This carries the revolver extremely well, not a burden at all. The Alaskan is one of the strongest revolvers you will ever see. Considerable recoil and blast but I doubt one would even notice it if something was after you. If I was in bear country it would definitely be on my side.

 

[sp6x6]

Number of years back here the F&G was releasing a trapped grizz.One of the local newspaper was there,think it was Kalispell weekly,so well maybe this warden was cowboying up a bit, he was on top the cage lifting the door,well the second that ****ed grizz cleared the door he turned right on warden on top cage,down he went pulling his 357 and emptying it on way down.Result dead bear,and new policy on release method.The cage was also on a pickup truck that was parked on a small bridge.Bear just pulled the whole works right out of truck,photos are unreal warden face first into bear,like a dive.

 

[J E Custom]

I have seen felons un affected by sprays and give the cops a very hard time. But they don't have the
same fight after being shot. And if a felon and a bear squared of, my money would be on the bear every time, no mater what size the bear was.

The rifle or the shotgun are better at stopping a bear at any distance. The advantage is in the revolver when the bear is on you because you can place it against him and fire as long as you have ammo. If there is a misfire you simply pull the trigger again (Unlike the semi auto pistol that requires both hands to clear if they misfire.

This is also a place that "size matters" A 44 mag is minimum as far as I am concerned, to me a better choice would be a 454 or a 460 in a short barreled revolver along with a shotgun.

J E CUSTOM

 

[WildRose]

I doubt it. I just decided the firearm I have with me is better than the one left at the house, and this firearm is so compact that I don't hesitate to carry it whenever I'm not carrying a long arm. That's really my sole use of this revolver. Whenever I step out a door, I'm in bear country. The 2 1/2" barrel kicks less than revolvers with longer barrels (non-compensated barrels) due to less muzzle velocity. I shoot 335gr hard cast lead bullets @1200fps MV. Lots of penetration. A 5" barrel would shoot them at 1400-1500fps. More MV = more recoil force.

If you listen to Greg Brush's interview, he says he has no memory of recoil or muzzle blast. None. Similar to others' reports with firearms in life & death self defense. Greg remembers firing his revolver, but he's fuzzy on whether he broke the bear's neck with his 3rd shot or 4th shot. All shots were fired from hip level, two-handed grip on the revolver. It was over in seconds.

I wish my factory barrel was 3 1/2" long. The revolver would still be plenty compact, and the extra MV and sighting length would be nice. I'm tempted to swap mine out for a .454 Ruger Redhawk with a longer barrel, and then have the barrel cut back to 3 1/2".

Other than working up loads measuring MV with some different powders, testing function, and making sure my bear defense bullets don't jump their crimps under recoil, I haven't shot further full power loads for practice. I have some reduced loads, 250gr Hornady jacketed hollow points, for home protection and practice.

I've seen people hauling around .500 S&Ws. They're huge and heavy. Might as well carry a short-barreled shotgun with Brenneke slugs.

That would be my problem as well. I'm not going to carry a defensive weapon I haven't shot enough to be able to get good hits in every possible situation under stress.

Even my 6 and 8" 44mag's while fun to shoot are pretty tough on my wrist shooting heavy loads by the time I get through a full box.

In a fight though you never notice recoil or muzzle blast unless of course it is so great it physically injures you or knocks the weapon out of your hand.

I've been teaching Self Defense/Defensive handgun use for 3 decades now and I've seen just about every bad thing you can imagine happen.

Just like the big super magnum rifles I would strongly encourage anyone thinking of stepping up to one of the monster magnum hand guns to find a way to shoot the one or one similar to that which they are considering purchasing before making that purchase.

At least with the 44mag you can shoot 44sp for practice/plinking to get familiar with it.

I got sold on the .41 Mag back in the seventies when I watched a friend of mine kill several large hogs with his. Same friend also took several nice bears in CO and 2 elk with the same pistol and load so I've owned at least one .41 ever since.

When I started guiding professionally I needed a good carry piece particularly for big hogs since we frequently got right in the middle of them while quail hunting. I went from the Ruger to the Taurus .425 when I first came across it and I've just kept at least one of them every since. That short barreled 5 shooter is great for carry and it has just enough barrel to balance and shoot well even out to 80yds or more.

I drove up on two 300plus pound boars one day and caught them sleeping, stepped out of the truck with the 425 and dropped one with a head shot at 38 paces, missed (shot high) on the second shot, second boar, then adjusted and dropped him with a shoulder/spine shot at a measured 79 paces. I was convinced at that point it was "enough gun" for me even if I had to use it on a charging bear.

I still have a couple of boxes of steel core penetrators that I picked up about 20 years ago specifically for such occasions and when Winchester came out with the dual bond .41's I bout a lifetime supply. That's an awesome, awesome bullet!

My brother has a 460 S&W that's fun to shoot but it's way too heavy and long barreled to carry as a defensive weapon. I would not however hesitate for a minute to carry it hunting.

 

[Pdvdh]

The advantage is in the revolver when the bear is on you because you can place it against him and fire as long as you have ammo. If there is a misfire you simply pull the trigger again (Unlike the semi auto pistol that requires both hands to clear if they misfire).
J E CUSTOM

Know a local resident that was mauled by a large brown bear that he surprised on a winter-killed moose carcass 15 years ago, early in the spring. He had a new Remington semi-auto rifle (30-06). The bear rose up on its rear feet and growled from 35-40yds away. The man shot over the bear's head in the effort to scare it off. Turned out to be a bad move. The shot initiated a full blown charge. The guy got off one shot while the bear was charging head on. He thinks he hit the bear but it didn't drop and his rifle jammed. The bear flattened him to the ground and stood with its front paws on his chest, preventing him from drawing a S&W .44 Magnum revolver from his shoulder holster. The bear bit down on the man's face, crunching many of the facial bones.

Told me his story while we were waiting to get flown out deer hunting on Kodiak Island. His face is in the bear's mouth, his trigger hand was gripping the revolver, and the bear's paws had his arm pinned to his chest. Big bear. Imagine 900-1100lbs. As quickly as he was able to move the pistol enough to point it away from his body, he fired it twice, still in the holster. This caused the bear to pause, and then re-adjust its two paws to his sides. He said the bear was starting to pull him out from under its body when he shoved the muzzle into fur and unloaded four rounds as quickly as he could pull the trigger. The bear became still at the shots, then released his head from its mouth and ambled away. Guy said he was seconds away from death by broken neck. The first two loud shots prompted the bear to begin pulling him out and up by his head, in order to shake him like a rag doll. His shots were fired when the muzzle met fur, as his eyes were in the bear's mouth. The revolver saved his life.

Bear was a tough bugger. Fish & Wildlife searched by helicopter, and F&G employees and the man's brother and father (seasoned hunters and trapper) searched on the ground extensively. They found and followed blood sign for a ways, but never found the bear, alive or dead. Dale was a pretty tough bugger also. Kept his cool under the circumstances, and employed his backup revolver as quickly as possible. Some extensive surgery was required to repair the damage to his face. He was fortunate that the bear only bit down several times and didn't pull and tear. Plastic surgeon was on duty at the local hospital and did a good job. His appearance is quite normal.

I don't ever carry a revolver in addition to a long arm. But Dale would be dead if he hadn't.

 

[Pdvdh]

That would be my problem as well. I'm not going to carry a defensive weapon I haven't shot enough to be able to get good hits in every possible situation under stress.

I hear ya. My selection of revolver for bear protection is, admittedly, a compromise. I selected a compact revolver I knew I'd be willing to carry all of the time, rather than a larger revolver that I'd leave at the house. Because I used to own a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with, as I recall, a 5 1/2" barrel. It was enough larger in size and weight that I found myself leaving it at the house, rather than holstering it and carrying it. This Ruger Alaskan is so compact that I'm willing to strap it on nearly 100% of the time I don't have a long arm for defense. And this is quite often - every time I walk away from the house for a hike/exercise. This is why I stated the weapon I have with me is more valuable than the weapon left at the house.

I would always rather have a short barreled Remington 870 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs to stop a 1000lb boar. I have three 870s, but I won't always carry one. I find that I do carry this compact Ruger Alaskan revolver.

 

[Wyodog]

I don't think ill be carrying a rifle, a hand gun and a can of pepper spray while backpack hunting. Too much stuff to carry. I also bow hunt while backpacking. So now the decision is hand gun or spray or both. Carrying both is still a lot to carry. Assuming that I choose one or the other I need to make a choice on which will provide the most likely chance to survive. Nothing else matters. By that I mean things like politics, peer pressure, etc.

The only data I can find suggest that bear spray has the edge. Other have pointed out that they believe the results are slanted towards the politics of the people who did the data gathering. This may be right, I don't know. The problem is I cannot find any evidence that suggest a hand gun works better most of time. So for me I have to look at as many variables as possible and then make a choice.

I believe that a revolver WILL fire every time. Aerosol cans sometimes fail, (read that on this thread). Tips towards hand gun at this point. However what is percentage of the time that the hand gun will stop a bear? Totally depends on shot placement and the ability of the person using the weapon. I don't believe a hand gun will stop a frizz in its tracks unless the wound is in the brain or spine. A good bear spray fans out making impact on the bears head somewhat easier. However strong winds can mess up this plan.

I don't think there is a perfect choice. I guarantee that spray will work better for my wife or anyone else who is not good with a handgun and shooting while rushed. I am positive that a handgun is not the right choice all the time no matter what or who is using it.

It comes down to what you feel tip the odds in your favor the most. Whichever way you go you need a plan and prepared to execute it.

 

[Pdvdh]

There are quite a few accounts of bears aborting their charge after being struck by a bullet fired from close range, even though they weren't brained, spined, or killed outright. And just as many where the bear's charge was impeded enough to finish him off before being able to maim or kill. Just noting that firearms have successfully deterred charging bears in the past with something less than the perfect brain shot.

Here's to hoping you never need to use bear spray or a bullet(s) to avoid a mauling (or worse), no matter which you prefer to use...

 

[Wyodog]

There are quite a few accounts of bears aborting their charge after being struck by a bullet fired from close range, even though they weren't brained, spined, or killed outright. And just as many where the bear's charge was impeded enough to finish him off before being able to maim or kill. Just noting that firearms have successfully deterred charging bears in the past with something less than the perfect brain shot.

Here's to hoping you never need to use bear spray or a bullet(s) to avoid a mauling (or worse), no matter which you prefer to use...

I agree with your comments completely. I think carrying a hand gun is a viable option. My comments are that it is not obvious which is a better choice and definitely not a "one size fits all" situation.

 

[WildRose]

I hear ya. My selection of revolver for bear protection is, admittedly, a compromise. I selected a compact revolver I knew I'd be willing to carry all of the time, rather than a larger revolver that I'd leave at the house. Because I used to own a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with, as I recall, a 5 1/2" barrel. It was enough larger in size and weight that I found myself leaving it at the house, rather than holstering it and carrying it. This Ruger Alaskan is so compact that I'm willing to strap it on nearly 100% of the time I don't have a long arm for defense. And this is quite often - every time I walk away from the house for a hike/exercise. This is why I stated the weapon I have with me is more valuable than the weapon left at the house.

I would always rather have a short barreled Remington 870 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs to stop a 1000lb boar. I have three 870s, but I won't always carry one. I find that I do carry this compact Ruger Alaskan revolver.

Yep and like most of thest conversations go, it's really about how confident you feel with what you are carrying. I have the same pistol in both 41mag and 45LC and the LC loaded up with 250 gr heavy JJPs in a Plus P load offers a good bit of comfort and shottability with ennough energy to get the job doen. No I wouldn' go hunting Grizz/Browns with that as myh primary weapon but if he's close enough to have to shoot in self defense I have a very high confidence level I can put a ll five into the face, head throat spie/shoulder area. I have a last chance I 'll stick it under the jaw or right down his mounth for the last one.

I'd even settle for draw to tell you the truth, what a fitting and memorable way for an outdoorsman to go. I've had to dispatch quite a few would boars in the well over 400lbs class with them over the years and came through all of them basicallly uninjured.

I'm one of those lucky guys that perceives the word is in slow motion and I have all the time in the world to do what is necessary when I'm being attacked, which is of course a huge advantage.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

It's funny how this subject always draws out a lot of "passionate "discussion".

When I first got to Montana many years ago, I bought a Ruger Redhawk 41 (beautiful gun, loved it) for the express purpose of bear defense while fishing in Griz country, usually the Dearborn River on the Eastern Front. I lived n Great Falls then. Walking through thick willows in Griz country can be a little un-nerving. The 41 made me feel better.

The more time I spent in bear country, the less nervous I became, and over the years I spent a good deal of time in bear country, especially in the Beartooths, Absorkees, Gallatins and Madison ranges after I moved to Bozeman. Most of the time I did not carry gun or spray and had numerous encounters with bears usually at a comfortable distance, especially when fishing in the Park (Yellowstone).

One interesting encounter happened while I was fishing, hiking up stream on the Yellowstone from Tower Falls in YNP back country. Wasn't carrying anything but my fly rod and my head was down on the trail when all of a sudden I saw a dark blur go by me on my left. It was about a 200 lb blackie in full gallop that passed about 20' to my left. I have fished slough creek quite a bit and about half my trips up there I see bears, sometimes multiple. After a while I decided maybe I should carry some protection as the odds might catch up to me someday. (And BTW, I have had as many or more bear encounters in my back yard as I have in the back country.)

Well back then you could not carry firearms in the park so I got some bear spray. Ok, so reading through this thread so far I have not noticed anyone making the distinction between different types of spray. There is a huge difference. UDAP and Counter Assault are more of a vapor than a spray and they get into your breathing passages and lungs, and mess you up big time. I know this because I tested UDAP myself once. On a calm day I squeezed the trigger for less than half a second and in less than half a second it shot out a burst that went about 30' and was about 6-8' in diameter. Just then a very light breeze started blowing it back in my direction so I retreated until the orange cloud disappeared. Then I walked back to the spot where I originally discharged it. Although I no longer saw any sign of it, I started choking and gagging and became nauseous. I felt very crappy for a couple of hours. These sprays are totally different than the sprays that are basically skin irritants. For any of you that have been through tear gas training (I have), I would say it was similar to that but a good bit more intense. A few years ago, some high school kid thought he would have some fun and discharged some UDAP into the bleachers of a football game. Several people were taken the the ER of the hospital.

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.