AMP Annealer VS No annealing Vs Torch Head Annealer Vs 2nd/3rd Shot

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by jdmecomber, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    I was reading a post about annealing and the vast differences shooters take regarding the subject. Some don't anneal, some anneal every 2nd or 3rd round, some burn their brass with torch heads, some use Tempilaq which only shows you get your brass to a certain temperature, some use an AMP annealer, so I wanted to research the subject more and get to the bottom of it.

    We purchased what we think is the best Annealer on the market today. We shall see.

    So if you go on the amp annealing website, you will see there are different temperature settings for each brand and lot of brass. Each brand of brass uses a slightly different ratio of copper to tin, which means a different temperature setting for the different compositions. An example would be in .243 Winchester, Federal Brass gets a setting of 59, Winchester brass gets a setting of 67 and Lapua Brass gets a setting of 93. Settings vary with neck thickness of your brass and also from lot to lot within a manufacturer.

    I have a turn table type annealer with multiple torch heads that is a pain to setup for different types of calibers. It's not easy to use but I had some decent results with it.

    I think what we are going to see in this upcoming test is that there is no way a shooter can return the neck hardness to factory spec using torch head annealers. Brass requires different temperatures to anneal and all tempilaq does is tell you for example you reached 750 degrees but what if Lapua brass requires 1200 degrees. (Just an example)
    Temperature isn't the only consideration for proper annealing as the duration of exposure to a said temperature is very important.

    We are going to start with 6 groups and all new Hornady brass. We will use a Ruger Precision Rifle in .243 winchester and will record extreme spread and standard deviation with a Magneto Chronograph for every group fired. Each group will have 5 shots and here is a list of the groups we will shoot, then it will continue with 5 shots each using different methods.

    Group Annealing
    1. 5 shots new brass, AMP, AMP, AMP, AMP

    2. 5 shots new , no, AMP, no, no

    3. 5 shots new , torch head, torch, torch, torch

    4. 5 shots new , no, no, AMP, no

    5. 5 shots new , no, no, no, no

    6. 5 shots new , torch head Tempilaq, TH Temp, TH Temp, Th Temp


    Group one will get the Amp Annealer after every firing
    Group two will get the Amp Annealer after every 2 firings
    Group three will get the torch head annealer after every firing
    Group four will get the Amp Annealer after every 3 firings
    Group five will get no annealing all the way through the test
    Group six will get the torch head annealer with tempilaq after each firing


    It will be interesting to see the results. My personal thoughts are we will see rising velocities in the brass that's not annealed with high extreme spreads.

    I think the 2nd and 3rd firing guys are going to see erratic extreme spreads and velocity but not as bad as not annealing at all.

    I think the torch head annealers will work but not as good as the AMP and I don't think Tempilaq is going to do much at all.

    Just my thoughts, that's why we're testing :)

    We will hopefully get most of this done in the next 2 days.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  2. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    Two comments -

    First, 1200 degrees is going to make really soft brass. I suspect that the temp window is far smaller, though you only gave the number as an example.

    Second, for the torch head non-Tempilaq batches you will have to describe how you arrived at your dwell time decision, and then of course not change it based on the time you then determine for your Tempilaq batches.

    Keep us posted.
     
  3. Rick Richard

    Rick Richard Well-Known Member

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    Great test!!! Looking forward to the results since I am on the fence about which to purchase if any.
     
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  4. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Our research led us to an article where the manufacturer annealing process temperature ranged from 800-1400 degrees. It didn't specify brand or caliber for those numbers. We will try to find that article.

    The torch head annealer I have has one setting so it will be easy to keep the dwell time exact.
     
  5. Engineering101

    Engineering101 Well-Known Member

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    I look forward to your results. I've had success using a torch and an old Techniques turntable in a dark room where you can see the case start to glow indicating annealing is done. A fixed dwell time doesn't really work for a handheld torch since it isn't always applied exactly the same thus the need to go off the glow rather than a fixed dwell time.
     
  6. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    Brass melts at 1600 or so.

    I have let brass sit in the torches for longer than normal to see what would happen. It crushes when you try to size it, and it was nowhere near 1400-1600 or more.
     
  7. Barrelnut

    Barrelnut Well-Known Member

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    Great idea! Looking forward to your results.
     
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  8. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Another good point
     
  9. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Groups 1-5 are complete
    This is new Hornady Brass and 2 CASES FAILED! I have never had that problem before for once fired brass. Brass prep was unturned necks with a neck size only die with a bushing for about .004 neck tension. Berger VLD 105 with H4831 SC

    Test number 1 is 6 groups with five shots each with brand new hornady brass, Group 6
    will have to wait for a new bottle of Tempilaq my bottle was very old and I threw it out.

    Group 1 AMP this is the group where two cases failed I am assuming the low velocity from those. Pics included
    1 2858 ES 27 SD 10
    2 2852
    3 2879
    4 2871
    5 2871

    Group 2 after 2 Firings
    1 2884 ES 13 SD 5
    2 2883
    3 2896
    4 2892
    5 2886

    Group 3 Torch
    1 2866 ES 15 SD 7
    2 2866
    3 2881
    4 2879
    5 2881

    Group 4 After 3 firings
    1 2879 ES 15 SD 5
    2 2881
    3 2866
    4 2879
    5 2876

    Group 5 no annealing
    1 2882 ES 19 SD 8
    2 2884
    3 2901
    4 2897
    5 2885

    I am going to throw out the two failed cases which I believe are the 2858 and 2852

    It looks like 23 rounds had a 35 extreme spread and an SD of 9.2

    Test 2 in progress
     
  10. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Couple pics
     

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  11. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Torch head annealer is the brighter colored brass and the amp annealer is the one not as colorful
     

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  12. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    Hornady brass can suck eggs. :)

    Had my own surprise with Hornady 375 Ruger cases recently.
     
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  13. Wedgy

    Wedgy Well-Known Member

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    I think you might need more firings/resizings on the brass to get it work hardened, then the annealing will make a difference. I think if you start your testing with brass that is hardened the different anealing methods will show their effectiveness.
    Great test regardless, thanks for all the work !
     
  14. oldfortyfiveauto

    oldfortyfiveauto Well-Known Member

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    17 Hornet Hornady brass sucks
     
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