A barrel that may be shot out?

[Varmint Hunter]

As Mikecr said, "Well, there is a difference between barrel life, and accurate barrel life."

My gunsmith recently told me that 95% of the barrels that he replaces on BR rifles would make excellent hunting rifle barrels that would produce good accuracy and last another 1,000 rds.

When I first started hunting PA groundhogs in earnest, I was shooting a bone-stock Rem 40X in 22-250. That rifle shot lights out (as they say) for a couple of seasons before accuracy degraded. I also shot the rifle extensively at the bench while learning about load development. Eventually I switched to a heavier/longer bullet and accuracy returned but it wasn't as good as it was originally. I continued to shoot the rifle for another couple of seasons before deciding to rebarrel. When the smith put a borescope down the barrel he was shocked at what he saw in a barrel that I was still shooting. There was no rifling for the first 2 inches!

It's amazing what it takes to actually shoot out a barrel and it all depends on what your accuracy criteria is. Today, I tend to replace the barrels on my hunting rifles more than most shooters and the barrels that I remove would probably be much better than a factory barrel and could be repurposed for someone looking to save a few $$$. There is just something about installing a fresh, new custom barrel that makes me smile.

 

[Mikecr]

Over the years I've seen a lot of people associate barrel life with eroding and receding lands.
That happens while closing in on end of life, but it doesn't actually cause the passing of peak accuracy potential.
That is, unless you NEED a particular bullet-land relationship (like jammed), but often this is not actually needed (it's a choice).

The real end, is formation of an acute bore constriction.
It's carbon impinging into the bore surface, lifting it. The more heat, and the more carbon, the faster this happens.
Bullets swedge through it, and having no elasticity, they lose bore fitting further on.

You probably think I'm nuts, but this passes tests.
There are barrels out there still shooting great with even more than a couple inches of throat receding.
There a barrels that forever left the farm with relatively little throat erosion.
So apparently, it's not about throat erosion.

An interesting thing about use of moly, is that it demonstrates my notion here.
Moly does reduce severity of throat erosion, but it does not extend accurate barrel life, and if mismanaged can cut accurate barrel life in half.
How does it do that?
Moly cools the charge with an early phase change (latent heat). Later down the bore, it cools and plates out (another phase change).
It has a strong affinity for itself, so following bullets wipe moly layers on top of each other to form a ring. A constriction.
If allowed to build then at some point shots begin to throw from this.
The problem here is that moly (like carbon) is very tenacious, and now, the fix ends worse than failure...
End of accurate barrel life -regardless of throat erosion.

It just dawned on me: We need elastic bullets!

 

[Fiftydriver]

There it is.

I suspected this would be the case, and I thank you for sharing @Fiftydriver. People think that all these posts and recommendations on this forum are being written by super experienced people that must shoot a ton. When the truth is that 99% of the people on this forum won't send more than 500 purposeful precision centerfire rounds down range in a years time. It's probably fewer than that actually. Likely, much fewer.

Conversely... I have 6 of my own precision bolt rifles due for a re-barrel at the moment. A true blessing indeed to find my path in life and be able to pursue it to this degree. Yet that's not what this is about.

The main point is that the concern of barrel wear, should be FAR more subdued in these discussions than it is. Everyone and their dog wants to talk about "yeah but barrel life bro..." when next to no one is getting their barrels replaced. They are buying rifles chambered in cartridges with a 800-1200rnd functional life, and they aren't wearing them out in a decade. Let that sink in. I've talked to several smiths that are putting on between 300-750 barrels per year, and they are doing maybe a handful of rebarrels each year. 5-15... max. To make that number seem even worse, often times, at least 50% of those rebarrels will be for the SAME GUY.

Barrel life is a factor, but in the ordered list of what matters... it's in about 50th place for most shooters, and maybe in 10th place for competition shooters. When dealing with finite accuracy and precision, in a ruthlessly competitive environment, it's an important factor to discuss to ensure the cartridge you're shooting will have a stable enough bore condition to start and finish a match without significant POI changes. As Kirby put it, "fire breathing dragons" just can't hang in a setting where 30rnd strings of fire and a 350rnd course of fire is the norm. Outside of certain competitive applications... it just isn't going to be a factor for most folks. (within reason) We evaluate each customer that wants a rifle from us, and discover whether they like chasing things around as a trade for wild performance... or if they'd prefer something easier to manage which is more stable.

Beyond that, the barrel life discussions are a total waste of time.


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I would agree with your commente. When w customer comes to me wanting one of my super magnum wildcat chamberings, we first have a detailed discussion about how they want to use this new rifle and how it will be used. If appropriate i will recommend one of my wildcats and they often will bring up barrel life. Then the discussion gets very real. If they are wanting one of my full custom rifles, they have already made the decision that they are willing to pay the cost for one of these. They are not cheap, world class in every way and as such not cheap. Starting prices will be Pushing $4k and very top end will be $6k or so depending on options wanted. Most fall in the $4500-$4800 range.

they hear this however and then get spooked by the 1000 round barrel life of say my 7mm AM loaded with a 195 gr berger at near 3400 fps out of my Raptor LRSS. Then i explain, if you care for the barrel properly and use it as recommended, you will likely get 8-10 seasons of use, or more. IF you actually burn the barrel out, you will have a $1200 charge to put a completely new barrel on the rifle, start to finish. Its hard to buy a decent quality factory rifle for $1200 these days. So for the cost of a factory rifle, you get for all intent and purpose a brand new hyper performance 7mm AM….. not cheap but how many out there have dropped more then this on factory rifles just to get average performance and results…

this may sound harsh to some and its not ment that way at all. Hard earned money is extremely valuable these days and we should always look to get the best bang for our buck and i do try my best to offer that to my customers as most builders here on LRH also do, but in my mind, a barrel is a wear item. Kind of like tires on your truck, if you USE your truck, you will need to repair your tires.

i would much rather see customers actually USE their rifles and need a new barrel installed every 8-10 years then turn them into safe queens.
again, not saying they are not expensive in any way, just that this is part of the cost to be a proficient long range shooter and hunter. Hope i did not offend anyone…

 

[Fiftydriver]

As Mikecr said, "Well, there is a difference between barrel life, and accurate barrel life."

My gunsmith recently told me that 95% of the barrels that he replaces on BR rifles would make excellent hunting rifle barrels that would produce good accuracy and last another 1,000 rds.

When I first started hunting PA groundhogs in earnest, I was shooting a bone-stock Rem 40X in 22-250. That rifle shot lights out (as they say) for a couple of seasons before accuracy degraded. I also shot the rifle extensively at the bench while learning about load development. Eventually I switched to a heavier/longer bullet and accuracy returned but it wasn't as good as it was originally. I continued to shoot the rifle for another couple of seasons before deciding to rebarrel. When the smith put a borescope down the barrel he was shocked at what he saw in a barrel that I was still shooting. There was no rifling for the first 2 inches!

It's amazing what it takes to actually shoot out a barrel and it all depends on what your accuracy criteria is. Today, I tend to replace the barrels on my hunting rifles more than most shooters and the barrels that I remove would probably be much better than a factory barrel and could be repurposed for someone looking to save a few $$$. There is just something about installing a fresh, new custom barrel that makes me smile.

When one is looking for consistency in the 0.1"s and 0.2"s, thats totally different thing then we are talking about here. Many feel you need a 1/4 moa rifle for long range hunting. That simply is not true. You need an accurate drop chart, a consistent rifle and the sbility to read conditions as accurately as possible. I once had a personal 7mm Allen Mag rifle i built myself for my hunting rifle. From the start this rifle was a 3/4 to 1 moa rifle. I almost trashed the thing before i ever took it hunting, just did not shoot tight groups at close range on paper. However i spent a summer shooting it and in spite of the very average 100 yard group size, it simply was easy to hit with even well past 1000 yards. By that i mean, hitting 1/2 moa sized targets in field type shooting situations with first shot was easy with that rifle. By the end of its career, i had harvested 34 head of big game over 8-9 seasons at ranges from 340 to 980 yards. All but two were one shot kills and those two that were not, were my mistakes that were quickly corrected with a proper followup shot at even longer ranges then the first shots. I tell guys all the time, 100 hard groups are great but get off paper as soon as you can and get onto the practical field shooting practice. Hundreds of great long range loads have been passed over because they did not meet 100 yard standards…. Not to mention the waste of barrel life looking for that magical load. When in reality a rifle that will consistently shoot 3/4 moa or better at long range is more then enough, with an accurate drop chart and good pilot to be consistently effective even out to 1000 yard in the big game field. Most can not shoot better then that from field conditions anyway, including myself which is why i always test from field like shooting positions.
we are not trying to beat the latest BR group size record. We obviously want the most accurate most consistent aystems we can have but we often get caught up in the weeds and overlook what is just as important to be a legit successful long range hunter and its not simply about having a 1/4 moa rifle. Often that is quite meaningless in the field….

 

[orkan]

we are not trying to beat the latest BR group size record.

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[comfisherman]

I'm grateful y'all more experienced people are putting this out there.

About 10 years ago a friend of mine wanted to build a custom rifle as he was about to have kids and knew that he'd still be able to hunt from time to time but was less likely to have the money for that kind of deal. He loved my hot rod cartridges but the internet scared him away from "barrel burners" and he ended up with a real milk toast mild round. At any rate he built a beautiful rifle and we worked up some loads, we settled on a usable serviceable load probably 100 rounds into the barrel. It just kind of happened into the Perfect combo really quickly and took very little work. I bet you in the first year of ownership he had 200 rounds to the barrel between range sessions workload up and hunting.

Fast forward 10 years and he calls me out of the blue asking about one of these new Hot Rod 6.5 Weatherby cartridges. There's one of the local gun shop he's salivating over, turns out in a decade of every other year hunts his current rifle still hasn't broke 300 rounds. Even the aforementioned 7 Allen magnum would see the average hunter through the casket door.... but give him Ferrari like ballistic performances when it does escape the safe.

If he was shooting prs every other weekend that's a whole nother story.


Had he gone with a 6.5 or 7 rum back then he'd still be money ahead on the cost of 2x guns.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I'm grateful y'all more experienced people are putting this out there.

About 10 years ago a friend of mine wanted to build a custom rifle as he was about to have kids and knew that he'd still be able to hunt from time to time but was less likely to have the money for that kind of deal. He loved my hot rod cartridges but the internet scared him away from "barrel burners" and he ended up with a real milk toast mild round. At any rate he built a beautiful rifle and we worked up some loads, we settled on a usable serviceable load probably 100 rounds into the barrel. It just kind of happened into the Perfect combo really quickly and took very little work. I bet you in the first year of ownership he had 200 rounds to the barrel between range sessions workload up and hunting.

Fast forward 10 years and he calls me out of the blue asking about one of these new Hot Rod 6.5 Weatherby cartridges. There's one of the local gun shop he's salivating over, turns out in a decade of every other year hunts his current rifle still hasn't broke 300 rounds. Even the aforementioned 7 Allen magnum would see the average hunter through the casket door.... but give him Ferrari like ballistic performances when it does escape the safe.

If he was shooting prs every other weekend that's a whole nother story.


Had he gone with a 6.5 or 7 rum back then he'd still be money ahead on the cost of 2x guns.

Amen!!

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Everyone has a different standard for what constitutes an accurate hunting rifle. While it's true that an off-the-shelf 1moa rifle will get the job done most of the time, the gun-nuts here generally strive for something more accurate. I personally strive to get all of my hunting rifles to shoot under 2" @ 400yds, consistently. If they won't do that then I'll have my smith look for the problem or send the rifle down the road to someone who couldn't care less about my accuracy quirks.

Fouling was something that caused issues in the past because it was impossible to determine if a bore was actually clean. Today, an awful lot of shooters have a borescope that is very revealing. It should be pretty easy to see if fouling "may" be the cause of inaccuracy. The interesting thing that I've noticed while using a borescope is that a fairly eroded bore can still shoot pretty good. Firecracking seems to appear far earlier than I ever expected but the accuracy doesn't degrade as fast as the condition of the bore.

Another thing I took particular notice of was the excellent condition of the bore on my .308Win. The rifle has 2,000+ rounds on it and the bore is in better shape than most of my other rifles with 1/4 as much use. Long Live The 308!

 

[bamban]

Another thing I took particular notice of was the excellent condition of the bore on my .308Win. The rifle has 2,000+ rounds on it and the bore is in better shape than most of my other rifles with 1/4 as much use. Long Live The 308!

When we shot 14s, our typical answer when asked how long the barrels last.... about 32 pounds of powder.

 

[QuietTexan]

I've talked to several smiths that are putting on between 300-750 barrels per year, and they are doing maybe a handful of rebarrels each year. 5-15... max. To make that number seem even worse, often times, at least 50% of those rebarrels will be for the SAME GUY.

It seems like some guys sell their match rifles as they get towards the end of life, and buy new full customs. Iit surprises me how often guys have entirely new rigs instead of just a new barrel. Maybe there's always some new gizmo or stock or something they just have to have.

I wonder where all the actions go. Seems like Defiance, Lone Peak, Impact, Curtis, Stiller, basically any decent name is backordered forever. Some guys must have safes full of a dozen of these things that never get shot more than a handful of times. I don't see them on the firing line very often outside of matches. Maybe I'm an oddball with a stack of barrels instead of a stack of complete rifles.

My gunsmith recently told me that 95% of the barrels that he replaces on BR rifles would make excellent hunting rifle barrels that would produce good accuracy and last another 1,000 rds.

Down here in Texas I bet 100% of them would work. Some places the way the feeders are set Mr. Magoo could hit a whitetail shooting a 7-08 out of a 308. "Hunting"!