7MM Rem Mag - hardly a sniper rifle!

[FEENIX]

Now that I got your attention!

I didn't want to hijack http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/7mm-remington-mag-build-help-135289/index2.html

For long range you those are 2 good calibers but I would go with the 7mm I always thought the 300 could outshoot a 7 until I had the honor of meeting a Military Sniper who took me under his wing and showed me the difference . He has both rifles also but his go to Rifle is that 7mm .

I've always been curious as to why the 7MM Rem Mag hardly made it in the List of sniper rifles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -despite all its accolades. Hopefully, it'll change but perhaps your friend (or others with similar real world/hands on experience) can shed some light. lightbulb

lightbulbNOTE: I know there are lots of members that are passionate about the 7MM Rem Mag and rightfully so, but this is NOT about that!lightbulb

I understand the list is inconclusive and perhaps inaccurate but just use it as a quick reference for a comparative purpose only.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

Being a very big fan of the 7mm mag, I too have often wondered why the round was an still is overlooked for a sniper round. The only government agentsy I know of that uses the 7mm mag for sniping is the secret service. (That also could have changed)! One could think that as popular of a hunting round an long range round it is that the military would take a look at it!
FEENIX! Good tread! Kinda gets the brain cells moving around!( what few I have left) Mabey others can shed some light on this subject! Just my 2cts!

DT

 

[fmajor]

iirc, the US Secret Service briefly used the 7mmRM chambering for it's interdiction rifles.

EDIT/PS: DT beat me to it! I didn't see his posting above mine... IDK if the Secret Service is still using the 7mmRM though.... Anyone?

 

[MudRunner2005]

I know they did use them, but no clue about their current sniper rifle situation.

The 7mmRM would make an excellent sniper caliber. Especially with heavy-for-caliber bullets like the Berger 180 Hybrid. It wouldn't be the fastest load, but it would still pack some serious punch, and could easily be suppressed.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

The Sierra reloading manual had a short quip about the 7rm being used by a .gov agency, i'm sure a little google-fu could find out if it's still in use.

Some random musings regarding the potential thought process behind the military decision to adopt the .300 rather than the 7rm (not in any particular order).

1). Bore life- While not a huge difference, it does exist. (according to my barrel life calculator an increase of ~10-20%) running H-1000 in both. When maintain hundreds if not thousands of rifles, the cost savings is not difficult to see.

2). Projectile cost- In order to get the best possible ballistics from the 7rm, the 180 Berger should be used; agreed? Berger 180's run $51/100pcs. The 220 SMK runs $48.50/100pcs. An offset cost of $250 per 10,000 rounds. When your orders run into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions......

2a). Projectile Availability- I have no problems with Berger so take this statement as an unbiases analysis. I personally feel Berger does not hold the manufacturing capability that Sierra does. Would it even be possible for Berger to meet the production demands of the .gov? If there was any hope, say goodbye to the civilian market for a good while.

3). Accuracy Potential- I do not have any loading experience with the Berger Hybrids but we are all aware of some of the inherent difficulties with the VLD's. Most with loading experience also understand how forgiving the SMK's are. With that being said, an experienced handloader could come to the conclusion that, with thousands of rifles, even built to the same "spec", the SMK could & should yield a more consistent accuracy potential across a broader range of rifle than the VLD can/will.

4). Internal Ballistics- Paper ballistics notwithstanding, the internal ballistic advantage of a bullet weighing 40 grains more traveling at equal velocity (mk248 mod1) can/should offer an increased effect of internal ballistics (impact on target) i.e. Hard target interdiction, penetration of barriers etc.


I'm not trying to sway votes in one direction or another, nor am I trying to wave a supporter flag in either direction (300wm all the way ). Just my musing of the potential "whys" of the decision to run the 300 over the 7rm.


t

 

[trebark]

4). Internal Ballistics- Paper ballistics notwithstanding, the internal ballistic advantage of a bullet weighing 40 grains more traveling at equal velocity (mk248 mod1) can/should offer an increased effect of internal ballistics (impact on target) i.e. Hard target interdiction, penetration of barriers etc.

I think you meant 'terminal ballistics'.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

I think you meant 'terminal ballistics'.

Well, crap. I most certainly did... no excuse other than lack of my daily quota of caffeine. Think one thing, type another.

That's what I get for trying to talk all smart'n'stuff.... Thanks trebark, as if I needed another blow to my fragile ego!

t

 

[LeddSlinger]

I agree with Outlaw6.0

A 7mm Mag is a very good powerful long range round, but the 300 has the advantage with component availability and cost. When the government looks to enter into a full scale contract project, they have to consider EVERYTHING, especially cost.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that as great a sthe 7mm RM is with the 180gr Berger VLD, The 300 win mag is much better with the 215gr or 230gr Berger VLD.

People often forget that Berger makes VLD and Hybrid bullets for the 30 cal chamberings that employ BC's much higher than any 7mm offering. And the 300 win mag can easily push a 215gr VLD as fast, or faster, than the 7mm Rem mag can push a 180gr VLD. That being said, the 300 win mag wins hands down. It's faster, shooting flatter and hitting WAY harder. It's a WIN, WIN, WIN...

 

[MudRunner2005]

I agree with Outlaw6.0

A 7mm Mag is a very good powerful long range round, but the 300 has the advantage with component availability and cost. When the government looks to enter into a full scale contract project, they have to consider EVERYTHING, especially cost.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that as great a sthe 7mm RM is with the 180gr Berger VLD, The 300 win mag is much better with the 215gr or 230gr Berger VLD.

People often forget that Berger makes VLD and Hybrid bullets for the 30 cal chamberings that employ BC's much higher than any 7mm offering. And the 300 win mag can easily push a 215gr VLD as fast, or faster, than the 7mm Rem mag can push a 180gr VLD. That being said, the 300 win mag wins hands down. It's faster, shooting flatter and hitting WAY harder. It's a WIN, WIN, WIN...

#1, the .300 WinMag with 215 or 230's is not "much better"... It might give you another 100 yards of shootability. Both calibers are very capable.

#2, when concerning BC's, you forget that Berger also makes a 7mm 180 Hybrid that has a .674 BC. And Matrix makes a 195gr 7mm bullet. And the .30 230 Hybrid OTM's have a BC of .719. That's only .045 BC difference. I wouldn't say that is "much higher"...

Velocities are about the same when you compare case volume vs bullet weight, so all things being equal, the added weight and BC of the slightly larger .30 caliber bullets will only add about an extra 100-150 yards of effective range.

Nobody who knows anything about trajectories will EVER say a .30 caliber shoots flatter than a 7mm caliber when case capacity vs. bullet weight are equal. That's like saying a .308 Win shoots flatter than a 7mm-08...Which is completely backwards. Higher BC doesn't mean a bullet shoots flatter. It means alot of things, but it doesn't mean squat about how flat the trajectory will be.

Let's not over exaggerate things for our own agendas and ideals.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

Having an still do own both calibers, the debate of 7mm mag vs 300 win mag will go on long after some of us have gone to be in the promised land!! That said, after talking to ex military personal an others that know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do, the response I keep getting is one of the main reasons that the 300 win got the military nod is because one of the common NATO rounds is the 30 caliber, the 7mm(284) is not! The 30 caiber has been in NATO, it seems like forever! It hasn't been forever, but many, many years!! That is one of the main reasons its used, the other reasons ( well who knows) this is the military we are talking about! Like I said earlier, the 7mm mag has an always will have a soft spot in my heart! I just like em!! Not gonna nothing bad about the 300 win mag either, it works!!! Sorry to get long winded!!

DT

 

[HARPERC]

List of sniper rifles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

It did make it though.

Politics, marketing, and flat out bribes, is my guess. Standard procurement stuff.

 

[LeddSlinger]

#1, the .300 WinMag with 215 or 230's is not "much better"... It might give you another 100 yards of shootability. Both calibers are very capable.

#2, when concerning BC's, you forget that Berger also makes a 7mm 180 Hybrid that has a .674 BC. And Matrix makes a 195gr 7mm bullet. And the .30 230 Hybrid OTM's have a BC of .719. That's only .045 BC difference. I wouldn't say that is "much higher"...

Velocities are about the same when you compare case volume vs bullet weight, so all things being equal, the added weight and BC of the slightly larger .30 caliber bullets will only add about an extra 100-150 yards of effective range.

Nobody who knows anything about trajectories will EVER say a .30 caliber shoots flatter than a 7mm caliber when case capacity vs. bullet weight are equal. That's like saying a .308 Win shoots flatter than a 7mm-08...Which is completely backwards. Higher BC doesn't mean a bullet shoots flatter. It means alot of things, but it doesn't mean squat about how flat the trajectory will be.

Let's not over exaggerate things for our own agendas and ideals.

Ok. Let's look at this then. First off you cannot compare bullet weight to bullet weight when talking about caliber's with different bore sizes. If you want to go that route then the 6.5mm's will out perform the 7mm's all day long at long range when both shooting 140gr bullets.

So in an attempt to compare apples to apples, you have to find the highest BC bullet available and measure a caliber's performance by how fast it can push that particular bullet. So when a 300 win mag can push a 215gr bullet faster than a 7mm mag can push a 180gr bullet. There is no winning for the 7mm on any level of the playing field. Not at the muzzle, not at 100 yards, and definitely not anywhere father out.

Now you say your 7mm has a "hybrid" Match Target 180gr bullet that has a BC of .674, and that's very true, but you are "omitting" a couple of things in your statement...
Berger also makes a "hybrid" 215gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal that has a BC of .696. Oh!? That's the part you left out...Then Berger also makes a "hybrid" 230gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal with a BC of .743. Oh!? left that out too didn't ya? So please do your homework and have your facts straight before jumping the gun next time.

Now even though the 300 win mag might not be shooting "considerably" flatter. It still beats out the 7mm Rem Mag in EVERY aspect.

1: Higher BC, is higher BC.
2: Farther supersonic range, is farther supersonic range.
3: Less wind drift, is less wind drift.
4: More energy, is more energy.

So there really is NO argument. The only way a 7mm Rem Mag is going to shoot flatter than a 300 win mag is if you LIE about it. It's that simple.
END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Ok. Let's look at this then. First off you cannot compare bullet weight to bullet weight when talking about caliber's with different bore sizes. If you want to go that route then the 6.5mm's will out perform the 7mm's all day long at long range when both shooting 140gr bullets.

So in an attempt to compare apples to apples, you have to find the highest BC bullet and measure a caliber's performance by how fast it can push that particular bullet. So when a 300 win mag can push a 215gr bullet faster than a 7mm mag can push a 180gr bullet. There is no winning for the 7mm on any level of the playing field. Not at the muzzle, not at 100 yards, and definitely not anywhere father out.

Now you say your 7mm has a "hybrid" Match Target 180gr bullet that has a BC of .674, and that's very true, but you are "omitting" a couple of things in your statement...
Berger also makes a "hybrid" 215gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal that has a BC of .696. Oh!? That's the part you left out...Then Berger also makes a "hybrid" 230gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal with a BC of .743. Oh!? left that out too didn't ya? So please do your homework and have your facts straight before jumping the gun next time.

Now even though the 300 win mag might not be shooting "considerably" flatter. It still beats out the 7mm Rem Mag in EVERY aspect.

1: Higher BC, is higher BC.
2: Farther supersonic range, is farther supersonic range.
3: Less wind drift, is less wind drift.
4: More energy, is more energy.

So there really is NO argument. The only way a 7mm Rem Mag is going to shoot flatter than a 300 win mag is if you LIE about it. It's that simple.
END OF DISCUSSION.

Where is the "Like" button? ^^^ This cat's got it figured out.


t

 

[MudRunner2005]

Ok. Let's look at this then. First off you cannot compare bullet weight to bullet weight when talking about caliber's with different bore sizes. If you want to go that route then the 6.5mm's will out perform the 7mm's all day long at long range when both shooting 140gr bullets.

So in an attempt to compare apples to apples, you have to find the highest BC bullet available and measure a caliber's performance by how fast it can push that particular bullet. So when a 300 win mag can push a 215gr bullet faster than a 7mm mag can push a 180gr bullet. There is no winning for the 7mm on any level of the playing field. Not at the muzzle, not at 100 yards, and definitely not anywhere father out.

Now you say your 7mm has a "hybrid" Match Target 180gr bullet that has a BC of .674, and that's very true, but you are "omitting" a couple of things in your statement...
Berger also makes a "hybrid" 215gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal that has a BC of .696. Oh!? That's the part you left out...Then Berger also makes a "hybrid" 230gr Match Target bullet for 30 cal with a BC of .743. Oh!? left that out too didn't ya? So please do your homework and have your facts straight before jumping the gun next time.

Now even though the 300 win mag might not be shooting "considerably" flatter. It still beats out the 7mm Rem Mag in EVERY aspect.

1: Higher BC, is higher BC.
2: Farther supersonic range, is farther supersonic range.
3: Less wind drift, is less wind drift.
4: More energy, is more energy.

So there really is NO argument. The only way a 7mm Rem Mag is going to shoot flatter than a 300 win mag is if you LIE about it. It's that simple.
END OF DISCUSSION.

I'm comparing bullet weight to case capacity...NOT bullet weight to bullet weight...That would be stupid.

Re-read my post. Your entire post was a complete waste of time and effort.

And your attempt at sarcasm and to "school me" on the Berger bullets is a useless attempt. I'm well aware the 215 and 230's are Hybrids. I have boxes of them sitting in my bench as I type this (might be out of 215's at the moment, but I'd have to look).

I own several .30 caliber rifles, one of which is significantly larger than the .300 WinMag, and it only pushes Berger 210's in the 2900-3000 fps range with a 26" 1:10 barrel... There are plenty of 7mm RemMags pushing 180's at 2,800+ Fps. I've ran some hotter than that it one of my 7mm's using good fire-formed Win brass.

No matter how much we argue statistics and semantics, they are closer than you will admit, and the .300 WM does NOT have some magical properties about it that make it "much better".

If you bought 2 identical rifles, loaded the same brand new brass, same brand and model bullets in their respective weights (180 for 7mm/230 for .30 cal), same powder, same compression loads, same primers...Then went and shot them. I bet you would barely notice any difference in performance, but the .300 would retain slightly more kenetic energy than the 7mm.

They are both excellent calibers, that are very close ballistically.