357 Maximum Rifle, 225gr SBT

[JerryWY]

Here in Ohio legal deer hunting rifle cartridges are straightwall cases from .357 to .50. So naturally, I'm looking at different options and trying to figure out what has the longest range.☺ Of commonly available rifles, 444 marlin seems to be near the top of the heap, ballistics wise.
I came across these, and liked the bc. 357 Maximun is the hottest 357 I found. But I can't find any load data for a 357 Maximum rifle with, say, a 26 inch barrel. It says 1700 fps in a 35 Remington with a 10 inch barrel. So my question is how much faster will a 357 Maximum fling these. And then add a long rifle barrel. Is it anywhere reasonable to think maybe 2400+? Is a 26 inch barrel too long for a cartridge like this? Can I go longer?
So tell me I'm nuts. Tell me why it would or wouldn't work. If you have any experience with this cartridge in a rifle, let's hear it.
Didn't mention anything about what a rifle like this looks like, where you'd get one, or who would even make it. That's just because its still in the 'theory' stage... (that doesn't cost anything, ya know) But if you have any ideas on the what, where, and who, absolutely tell me about it..

 

[imyourhuckleberry]

Here is a link to an article that may answer some questions. Check the charts out at the bottom of the page.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2...t-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

 

[lostsixgunner]

Then you will be looking for a TC contender or encore...

 

[JerryWY]

Thanks for your replies. Can we get some more ideas?

The article on barrel length vs velocity is very informative.

Winchester just came out with a 350 Legend which got me stirred up about this again. This cartridge length is 1.71 inch, and with 357 max being 1.605, I'm wondering if I should replace my maximum thoughts with legend??

If I put together a rem 700 in 357 max, would the rimmed case be a feeding problem?

You might ask why don't I just wait and buy a winchester xpr when they're available? Don't know myself, except I tend to favor rem 700 and savage actions. Don't ask me why.

One thing is sure, I'll be looking out for accuracy reviews on an xpr in 350 legend.

Anybody care to share your thoughts?
Thanks

 

[MudRunner2005]

The .35 Remington case is basically a .308 Winchester (but slightly narrower and shorter) with a .358" diameter bullet stuffed into it. I would think it would beat the .357 Maximum, honestly. If the .35 Rem is legal where you're at, and you're wanting to build a bolt-action, I would probably go that route, as brass and ammo is much easier found than .357 Maximum brass and load data.

You could always go regular .357 Magnum with 140 Hornady FTX's and H110. That's what I load for mine. You can get some pretty fast rifle loads with that combo. Make sure you use rifle load data for a rifle, and pistol load data for a revolver (different safe pressures).

 

[RT2506]

Rimmed cases don't play well with stacked magazines like in the 700 Remington. May be possible to make a single shot but it would be costly. A T/C Contender G2 or Encore makes a lot more since. Do you have a case length limitation in your state for a straight wall case? If you don't there are some good old black powder era straight wall cases that you could utilize to make a real deer hunting longer range rifle. 40-50 Sharps 1 7/8" and the 40-60 Maynard 2.20" can be made by blowing out 303 British or 30-40 Krag cases and cutting to length. The 40-70 Sharps straight can be formed from 405 Winchester cases. Then there is the 40-90 Sharps straight 3 1/4" that can be formed from Bell .405 basic cases. This caliber in both the bottle neck and straight wall was a popular "high velocity" for it's day buffalo caliber. Paper patch an almost pure lead 380 to 400 gr bullet and it will do a number on an critter waaaaay out there even propelled with black powder but you have to know where your rifle shoots at what yardage.

I have killed a number of deer with a 10" barrel T/C Contender pistol in 357 Mag out to 100 yards using 180 Hornady XTP at 1400 fps and it does a good job.

 

[Muddyboots]

The .357 Max will out perform the .350 Legend except in one area - rimless. I have a MGM barrel 24" ProHunter Contour 1:14 twist which allows me to shoot 180 grain bullets and above extremely well. The Speer Hot Cor 180 soft point shoots lights out and velocities are over 2200 fps.
https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullet/2435
The Hornady 200FTX shoots well and velocities were over 2100 fps. Barrel twist is everything when shooting the Max, my 1:14 barrel will not shoot the 158 gr etc bullet worth a darn which is OK by since I prefer the 180's for deer.

Here is a link to the MGM website where they did a barrel length load velocity test on both .357 Mag and .357 Max that will give you a lot of data to think about. I went with the 1:14 twist before they had done this test otherwise I probably would have gone with 1:16 or 1:20 in their test data. I am getting a little more velocity with my 24" barrel in comparison to their 16 and 20" barrels. I also shot the Cutting Edge 160 gr bullet and it was unreal how well it shot but the price kept me away when I can shot the Speer 180 Hot Cor inside 2" at 200 yards all day.
https://matchgrademachine.com/encore-contender-357-magnum-maximum-load-development-results/
Brass is available from several suppliers, bullets are whatever you want in the .357/.358 dia.
Hope this helps,
Muddy

 

[Muddyboots]

Some additional info on Fury Bullets, Detroit, MI.
As I stated, I have had really good luck accuracy wise with Fury .358 190 grain SP and Speer .358 180 grain Hot Cor. The Hornady .358 200 grain FTX shoots well also. The Speer 180 is very tough bullet and some do not like it because of that. The Fury 190 grain is one I had custom made by Dennis at Fury Bullets and shoots REALLY well. I have some Nosler 180 grain Partitions that shoot very well but I prefer to think of them as close quarter medicine. The Fury 190 and Speer 180 Hot Cor both printed inside 2" at 200 yards. The Speer bullet is readily available and so is the Hornady 200 gr FTX. Fury will make what you want or just buy off their website.

A friends 12 yr old loves to shoot 158's in .357 Magnum at 25 yds. Still decent enough accuracy but beyond that, more like a prayer to hit target! Just a function of barrel twist. The .357 Max is barrel twist dependent for accuracy. I loaded .357 mag with 180 gr XTP for him to use deer hunting and it shot fine. Again the barrel twist to bullet mass (bearing surface and mass) is critical for accuracy.
Fury Bullets:
http://www.furycustombullets.com/
Here is a picture of a jug test I did on it attached below.

Hawk bullets also another good source for Max bullets. I've used with good results.
http://hawkbullets.com/bullet-selection.html

Cutting Edge Bullets shot fantastic but $$$$.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/shop/...ets?caliber=43
Hope this helps.
Muddy

 

[shooter7]

Winchester just introduced the 350 Legend for all the people who are stuck using straight walled cartridges. It appears to be a rimless 357 Maximum. The winchester representative claimed 2300 fps with a 150gr bullet out of a 20 inch barrel.

 

[hunter67wa]

My findings are three of us used 357 mag out of 2 Rossi lever at 20 inch and one Marlin with 16.25 to hunt blacktails and elk. I shot 180 hardcast lead both from Buffalo Bore and HSM bear loads. They averaged 1810fps out of my Marlin. My one friend was shooting 158jsp out of his as they shot very well. I watched him shoot an elk at about 70 yards once behind the shoulder and one through and had complete penetration on both, elk went 20 yards. We were amazed at the penetration
I shot a blacktail buck at a lasered 194y with 180 hardcast and complete passthrough on 3 shots. They will not expand so be ready to shoot again.
Wife shot a good bull at 172 yards 3 shots two pass through and one stopped on far side. One of the passthrough was high shoulder and completely shattered the spine.
We never got to try the Barnes 140 xpb but I think it might work depending on range. Under penetration will always be the problem.

 

[JerryWY]

Thanks Muddy, 2506, hunter67, shooter7. Thats exactly the sort of info i was looking for. Hard to beat real world experience which is mainly what this site consists of.

The 35 whelen is a bottleneck case, so its not legal. I don't think Ohio has a case length restriction. Things like 444marlin, 460 S&W mag, and 45-70 are legal so it makes me think length isn't an issue.

Muddy,
Care to share your load data on the 180gr Speer load?

Again, anyone else with experience or even just thoughts, chime in...

 

[JerryWY]

Also 2506,

I guess I'm also not familiar with any of the blackpowder cartridges you mentioned. Mayb ppl use them with smokeless too, who knows?

I guess, ideally, when I'm thinking about maximum range, I think about minimum diameter for better b.c. and s.d. In this case .357. And then the longer the case the better, for velocity. I'm thinking a 357max stretched to a 2 or 2.5 inch case would theoretically be right about perfect.

That, however, is an imagination turned loose. Anybody else plagued with one of those?

 

[edwells69]

[email protected]

 

[Muddyboots]

Jerry,
FYI - I actually authored the initial law for MI in 2009 and it took 5 years to get it passed. OH copied it for them as well. I am pretty proud of the impact it has had across several additional states (OH, IL, IO, MS) to allow the straight wall in shotgun zones. Youth, women, elderly have all benefited from it. The intent was strictly to increase hunting sustainability in MI recognizing there are additional benefits BUT my primary focus was on how can we pull youth back into the sport? Just seeing the added kids at the range shooting .44 Mag rifles, .357's etc clearly confirmed the result met the intent. Of course allowing the .450 BM didn't hurt either!!!

Accurate powder has good reloading data:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
See page 26 for .357 Max data. 1680 fills case up>100% but no risk of pressure it seems. The Hornady 200 gr FTX is about 2150 with their load data.

Speer data book also has good data for the .357 Max. The .357 max will stay with the .35 Rem easily and pass it to a certain extent.

Send me a PM and we can discuss more if you like unless there is desire to keep adding to thread.

I am also working on a 1.8" stretch of the Max and hope to have it at brass soon. Brass drawing done from RCBS software so all is ready except for getting brass and reamer. I am trying to get a reasonable brass price since it will only be a personal wildcat. The brass $$$ is getting scary for the min quantity they will produce. If I can pull it off, I think I will see another 100 fps or so to the Max But with better bullet seating options going forward.
Muddy