338 EDGE @3146 with 300 Berger

[6.5-300 BEE]

Interesting info. I'm so old I remember Roy getting higher velocities with freebore.

The erosion issue can be addressed by Nitriding, expensive but worth it. My rifle maker has customers with 22-250s with over 5000 rounds in 3 groove Nitrided bbls that show little wear.

My 338 RUM with 500 down the tube borescopes as new.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Interesting info. I'm so old I remember Roy getting higher velocities with freebore.

The erosion issue can be addressed by Nitriding, expensive but worth it. My rifle maker has customers with 22-250s with over 5000 rounds in 3 groove Nitrided bbls that show little wear.

My 338 RUM with 500 down the tube borescopes as new.

Nitriding has its own issues, perhaps the main issue is every barrel maker on the planet will void their warrantee on the barrel if its nitrided...... as a barrel maker, i need the backing of the barrel maker just in case something is mechanically wrong with the barrel. That is rare these days but it does happen and at times it happens after the barrels have a number of rounds down the bore.

like everything in this sport, there are very few things that offer something for nothing.....

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

My smith stands behind what he does, including the Nitriding.

My RUM is a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Hard to figure out why the Edge exists. Nobody has proven it can do anything better than the RUM.

I really doubt 3200 fps w/a 300 Berger in 32", but what do I know ?

From here in 2012:

"

Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,615

Re: Lapua vs RUM Case Capacity The 338-300 RUM and 338 Lapua loaded to the same pressures are virtually identical performance wise. The Lapua is typically faster because people tend to load the Lapua brass a little hotter with the same or better case life. The lapua is the better cartridge for several reasons. The 338 RUM has slightly less powder capacity than either of the other two but not much and performance between the three are all so close individual barrels make more diffence than there is between the cartridges. If the plus P changes performance it would be the same change with all of them so again basically all about the same. They are all so close either will do anything the other two will. All are equally accurate and share many of the same accuracy loads." In my smith's opinion, the Lapua is a poorer design for bolt actions rifles as it has more body taper than the RUM. (Said to be done for semi/full auto applications). The Lapua is certainly "in" given its sniper use. They all kick too much and I'm thinking of rebarreling my Savage to 6.5 PRC.

 

[Wachsmann]

So here is my question. Does the 338 edge produce more velocity than a 338 lapua AI chamber or they about the same. Also is there any benefit with the lapua outside of brass, stronger primer pockets, etc. Reason asking is I have a 300 RUM.

 

[codyadams]

My smith stands behind what he does, including the Nitriding.

My RUM is a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Hard to figure out why the Edge exists. Nobody has proven it can do anything better than the RUM.

I really doubt 3200 fps w/a 300 Berger in 32", but what do I know ?

From here in 2012:

"

Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,615

Re: Lapua vs RUM Case Capacity The 338-300 RUM and 338 Lapua loaded to the same pressures are virtually identical performance wise. The Lapua is typically faster because people tend to load the Lapua brass a little hotter with the same or better case life. The lapua is the better cartridge for several reasons. The 338 RUM has slightly less powder capacity than either of the other two but not much and performance between the three are all so close individual barrels make more diffence than there is between the cartridges. If the plus P changes performance it would be the same change with all of them so again basically all about the same. They are all so close either will do anything the other two will. All are equally accurate and share many of the same accuracy loads." In my smith's opinion, the Lapua is a poorer design for bolt actions rifles as it has more body taper than the RUM. (Said to be done for semi/full auto applications). The Lapua is certainly "in" given its sniper use. They all kick too much and I'm thinking of rebarreling my Savage to 6.5 PRC.

I don't think Mr. Allen is talking about your smith (in reference to nitriding) specifically, but the barrel itself. What if 200-300 rounds down the pipe, your bore starts to get pits in it, because the metal had soft spots just under the bore that weren't apparent until you fired some rounds? If your smith will look at a defective barrel from whatever premier company, and replace it for you, that is great. But if it is a problem with the barrel itself, and your smith doesn't replace it, the barrel manufacturing company won't replace it either because it has been nitrided, then you have a barrel with pits, and it will be replaced only on your dime.

If your smith will replace the barrel on your rifle because, say, Bartlien had a faulty product, that is great. But what I think Mr. Allen is saying is if your smith won't replace a faulting barrel on his own dime, then your stuck with it. He is just throwing out considerations.

 

[Fiftydriver]

My smith stands behind what he does, including the Nitriding.

My RUM is a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Hard to figure out why the Edge exists. Nobody has proven it can do anything better than the RUM.

I really doubt 3200 fps w/a 300 Berger in 32", but what do I know ?

From here in 2012:

"

​

Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,615

Re: Lapua vs RUM Case Capacity The 338-300 RUM and 338 Lapua loaded to the same pressures are virtually identical performance wise. The Lapua is typically faster because people tend to load the Lapua brass a little hotter with the same or better case life. The lapua is the better cartridge for several reasons. The 338 RUM has slightly less powder capacity than either of the other two but not much and performance between the three are all so close individual barrels make more diffence than there is between the cartridges. If the plus P changes performance it would be the same change with all of them so again basically all about the same. They are all so close either will do anything the other two will. All are equally accurate and share many of the same accuracy loads." In my smith's opinion, the Lapua is a poorer design for bolt actions rifles as it has more body taper than the RUM. (Said to be done for semi/full auto applications). The Lapua is certainly "in" given its sniper use. They all kick too much and I'm thinking of rebarreling my Savage to 6.5 PRC.

it is true that the edge and lapua have nearly identical case capacities but the lapua will support dramatically higher chamber pressures then any RUM case. The standard 338 lapua compared to the 338 Edgem when both are loaded to SAME CASE LIFE LEVELS, the lapua will add 100 fps to the Edge.

people then applied the ackley improved design to the lapua and started getting extraction issues, especially when brass got older. The ack improved design was ment for 06 diameter cases, never large diameter, high pressure cases. My design offers max capacity, proper case body taper to get the max performance out of the lapua parent case. Its not unusual to see 200 fps advantage over the Edge....

or looked at it another way, my 338 Allen Xpress will do in a 26 in barrel with short 3.670" oal ammo what a 338 edge will do in a 30" barrel with extremely long, single shot only ammo length and needing special throats to get it.

in my professional opinion, 3200 fps our of any Edge is laughable and over the years, those claiming these velocity levels have all pretty much settled back to sub 3000 fps levels in extremely long barrels for some reason, generally they claim the rifles just shoot the best there.

this surprises me as my rifles pretty much shoot the same at 2700 fps as they do at +3000 fps so i suspect the real reason for the throttle back is likely for other reasons. Its also been discovered that when they were promoting these numbers they were getting VERY SHORT case life, at times only one or two firings.... again, nothings free.

 

[Fiftydriver]

So here is my question. Does the 338 edge produce more velocity than a 338 lapua AI chamber or they about the same. Also is there any benefit with the lapua outside of brass, stronger primer pockets, etc. Reason asking is I have a 300 RUM.

no, the 338 edge WILL NOT produce more velocity then the 338 lapua AI. Not even close. That said, the 338 lapua AI is a poor design. The AI case design was ment to be used on cases the diameter of the 06. Larger diameter cases need more body taper for proper extraction at top working loads especially when brass gets a bit long in the tooth.

the lapua case has many advantages over the much longer edge, especially if someone wants a repeating rifle. The shorter fatter powder column has been proven to be more efficient as it will produce more FPS per grain of powder then a longer skinnier powder column. How critical is this, not much....

however, it does allow for much shorter OAL in ammo which makes it easier to get into repeating rifles with conventional length mags. For example, just tested one of my APS Stalker Hunter rifles in my 338 Allen Xpress which is a fine tuned version of the lapua improved wildcat. In a 28" barrel with ammo that is only 3.670" in oal, this rifle will drive the 300 gr. Berger to 3015 fps with extremely comfortable pressures easily allowing 8-10 firings per case.

for the Edge to get anywhere near this you would need a 30" plus barrel, nearly 4" ammo length and likely special throats that have their own stated life issues.

then someone will say, brass is to expensive for the lapua...... well, if you can gain 150-200 fps in same length barrels with same bullet and get 8-10 firings compared an edge that may at best get half that case life. last time i checked, lapua brass was not twice as expensive as top quality RUM brass so the brass price issue is a non issue When you look at cost per firing.....

however, there are applications where i would recommend the Edge over my 338 Allen Xpress. Namely, if someone wanted to use a commercial receiver and not go with a full custom receiver designed from the ground up for the lapuas special stress issues. For those applications, say a rem 700 receiver, i would recommend the Edge over my 338 Allen Xpress, not because of performance in any way, but because the smaller diameter edge case head is more easily supported by the rem 700 receiver.

i am not bad mouthing the RUM or edge, build alot of 300 rum rifles and in the past have build dozens of Edge rifles and they flat out shoot and are accurate and hit hard. I just wanted more and my 338 Allen Xpress takes it to a significantly higher level and combined with my Raptor and Stalker receivers, which are designed from the ground up to be the ultimate for this class of chambering, the RUM or Edge simply does not compare as far as performance goes.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I don't think Mr. Allen is talking about your smith (in reference to nitriding) specifically, but the barrel itself. What if 200-300 rounds down the pipe, your bore starts to get pits in it, because the metal had soft spots just under the bore that weren't apparent until you fired some rounds? If your smith will look at a defective barrel from whatever premier company, and replace it for you, that is great. But if it is a problem with the barrel itself, and your smith doesn't replace it, the barrel manufacturing company won't replace it either because it has been nitrided, then you have a barrel with pits, and it will be replaced only on your dime.

If your smith will replace the barrel on your rifle because, say, Bartlien had a faulty product, that is great. But what I think Mr. Allen is saying is if your smith won't replace a faulting barrel on his own dime, then your stuck with it. He is just throwing out considerations.

that is exactly my point. While i back every one of my rifles 100%, i also want to make sure that the other component companies i partner up with in my rifles will also back their products, such as if something goes south with the stocks, i know mcmillan will back me and my customers up to correct the problem. If there is a barrel issue i know bartlein has my back and my customers back.

if there IS a barrel issue or stock issue, i will provide all the needed donated labor to get the stock installed properly or barrel installed properly on my dime but i also demand that the stock and barrel makers cover those component costs if the issues are on their end and these two companies certainly do that and thats why i am loyal to them.
again, this is all RARE, but it does happen. That said, knock on wood, i have yet to have a bartlein barrel need to be replaced. However i have had barrels from pretty much every other top barrel maker in the states have issues from time to time.

having to eat the cost of a top end stainless steel fluted barrel is like throwing away the profits on two full rifles when you figure in the lost income for donating the machining cost and also the lost production time that could have been spent on the next rifle on the work order schedule....

barrel treatments have come and gone and they will continue to do so. In my professional opinion, even with my extreme wildcats, if you keep the barrels clean, follow my recommendations for no more then 3 shot strings, never over heat the barrels, they will offer much longer barrel life then most would ever expect. Without any negatives with barrel treatments or bullet coatings that often come up.

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

All I know is that my Nitriding job was held up as the company had 1000s on M4 barrels to do 1st.

Nitriding is not some mouse-milk product that will vanish in a month. It has a solid record and will continue to be the choice of those wanting corrosion and wear resistance.

Those wishing to be informed might read the following:

An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Pros and Cons of Nitride Barrel Finishes

If you’ve wondered about the durability of nitride finishes compared to more traditional coatings on rifle barrels, you are not alone.

www.shootingillustrated.com

Heat Treating Services | Heat Treatment Company | Specialty Steel Treating

SST is an ISO certified metal and steel heat treatment company. We have specialized and provided steel heat treating services, case hardening, heat quenching, oil quenching and more for over 60 years. Contact us to find more about heat treated steel and our specialty steel services.

www.sst.net

Chrome Lining vs. Salt Bath Nitriding: Which Barrel Finish Is Better? - Criterion Barrels

One of the most frequently asked questions by shooters pertains to the difference between our barrels with chrome lining and salt bath nitriding.

criterionbarrels.com

Salt-Bath Nitriding for Barrels — Whidden is Impressed « Daily Bulletin

Many shooters expend considerable time and effort to coat their bullets with friction-reducing compounds such as Boron Nitride (HBN), Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly), and Tungsten Disulfide (WS2 or 'Danzac').

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

You are being redirected...

Remember what Will Rogers said ------

 

[bigngreen]

Nitriding is nothing new, the claims have come and gone more than once! It had excellent application that I really like it for but it's not universal!

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

Sorry the "claims" have not gone. The FACTS remain the facts.

Somehow I don't think the military is doing it for almost everything because it's a "claim".

I'm sure you read all the links ? (chuckle)

More facts from HK: Typically HK cold hammer forged barrels with the tapered bore towards the muzzle tend to shoot better once they are broken in. 10.4" HK416 in tests at HK in 2004 fired @ 1" groups at 100 meters from a fixture shooting 77 grain MK262 MOD 0 ammo AFTER firing 12,500 rounds.

 

[Fiftydriver]

All I know is that my Nitriding job was held up as the company had 1000s on M4 barrels to do 1st.

Nitriding is not some mouse-milk product that will vanish in a month. It has a solid record and will continue to be the choice of those wanting corrosion and wear resistance.

Those wishing to be informed might read the following:

An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Pros and Cons of Nitride Barrel Finishes

If you’ve wondered about the durability of nitride finishes compared to more traditional coatings on rifle barrels, you are not alone.

www.shootingillustrated.com

Heat Treating Services | Heat Treatment Company | Specialty Steel Treating

SST is an ISO certified metal and steel heat treatment company. We have specialized and provided steel heat treating services, case hardening, heat quenching, oil quenching and more for over 60 years. Contact us to find more about heat treated steel and our specialty steel services.

www.sst.net

Chrome Lining vs. Salt Bath Nitriding: Which Barrel Finish Is Better? - Criterion Barrels

One of the most frequently asked questions by shooters pertains to the difference between our barrels with chrome lining and salt bath nitriding.

criterionbarrels.com

Salt-Bath Nitriding for Barrels — Whidden is Impressed « Daily Bulletin

Many shooters expend considerable time and effort to coat their bullets with friction-reducing compounds such as Boron Nitride (HBN), Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly), and Tungsten Disulfide (WS2 or 'Danzac').

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

You are being redirected...

Remember what Will Rogers said ------

I have been in the business for 20 years and at the top of the custom rifle business for over 15. I know all about nitrite treating. I am not debating its advantages or disadvantages in any way, only stating the fact that every top end barrel maker on the planet will void their warrantee covering their barrels if they are treated with this process. Now, AR barrels, thats a totally different story as nitrite treatment was originally designed to help extend the life of select fire firearm barrels which care little about top end accuracy, only want or need extended barrel life.

again, not debating the pros and cons of this, only that every top end barrel maker will tell you your on your own if you do this to their barrels....

 

[Fiftydriver]

Sorry the "claims" have not gone. The FACTS remain the facts.

Somehow I don't think the military is doing it for almost everything because it's a "claim".

I'm sure you read all the links ? (chuckle)

More facts from HK: Typically HK cold hammer forged barrels with the tapered bore towards the muzzle tend to shoot better once they are broken in. 10.4" HK416 in tests at HK in 2004 fired @ 1" groups at 100 meters from a fixture shooting 77 grain MK262 MOD 0 ammo AFTER firing 12,500 rounds.

the military does this to extend barrel life on full auto firearms, pure and simple, only reason they do it. That application has real merits but could not be more polar opposite from what we are doing here. Again, not debating pros and cons, saying if you want to void your barrels manufacturers warrantee, this is a sure way to do it. Call them all up and see. I have personally spoken with the owners of Lilja, Hart, Broughton, Brux, Krieger, Rock, Bartlein, Benchmark, etc.... and they all say the exact same thing.

they also say, its not needed in a bold action application. While i tend to agree with that, that is not the basis of my comments on the topic.

 

[Mram10us]

it is true that the edge and lapua have nearly identical case capacities but the lapua will support dramatically higher chamber pressures then any RUM case. The standard 338 lapua compared to the 338 Edgem when both are loaded to SAME CASE LIFE LEVELS, the lapua will add 100 fps to the Edge.

I'm curious about this statement. What is a "case life level"? In my experience, our edges have outperformed std Lapua. Never seen a std lapua outrun an edge by 100fps.
Thanks for all the info above.