2 guns 2 calibers. Need some advice

[Autorotate19]

My buddy has a completely stock rem sps in 300rum. He handloads and I watched him shoot five groups the other day with it. They were all easily under 1" at 100yards. Two were under .5''. I have 2 also and they both consistantly shoot great. Just this year I killed a mulie at 500 yards with a 700 bdl with factory loads. I wouldnt hesitate to get a stock remy but if I had the choice between the two I would get a sendero. Hope this helps good luck!

 

[ATH]

My buddy has a completely stock rem sps in 300rum. He handloads and I watched him shoot five groups the other day with it. They were all easily under 1" at 100yards. Two were under .5''. I have 2 also and they both consistantly shoot great. Just this year I killed a mulie at 500 yards with a 700 bdl with factory loads. I wouldnt hesitate to get a stock remy but if I had the choice between the two I would get a sendero. Hope this helps good luck!

+1. I had a buddy who was on a budget with a kid coming but needed a rifle to accompany me on an elk/muley/antelope hunt. He got an SPS in 300WM and a Nikon Buckmaster scope. His whole setup cost half what my Sendero and scope did, yet he made a perfect 550yd shot on a muley, factory ammo. The lack of travel in his optics limited him (600yds) more than the gun did.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

+1. I had a buddy who was on a budget with a kid coming but needed a rifle to accompany me on an elk/muley/antelope hunt. He got an SPS in 300WM and a Nikon Buckmaster scope. His whole setup cost half what my Sendero and scope did, yet he made a perfect 550yd shot on a muley, factory ammo. The lack of travel in his optics limited him (600yds) more than the gun did.

First off, I hope no one misunderstands my comments regarding "standard" Rem 700's. I am not knocking them and they are no doubt a good rifle for the average hunter and that is the market that Remington produces them for. But this site is the LR Hunting site and 500 yds is what most here would consider the beginning of LR. Some would not consider it even that.

I have two Senderos that shoot very well. The 300 RUM has shown me consistant accuracy in the .5 MOA range out to 500 so far and as of yet I haven't got it out farther than that but expect good things out of it. The 25-06 hasn't been shot out to 500 yet, but it shows slightly better accuracy potential (with a fire craked bore) than the 300 RUM. This is typical accuracy for Senderos. You do not hear or read this about BDL's, SPS's, etc. Once again... if you read the threads and posts on this site, which is a site dedicated to LR shootling and hunting you will find many, many posts about the good accuracy of Senderos and Savages. You will also find quite a few on Vanguartds and Howas. You will find precious little on BDL's and SPS's. The reason for this is that the cream naturally rises to the top.

Most standard 700's come with plastic or wood stocks that are not pillar or full aluminum bedded stocks. This is NOT a good platform for relaible and consistant LR shooting from 600-1000 yds. They also have factory sporter contour barrels which are not the best set up for LR but typically work fine out to 500 yds. These rifles are just plain and simple not LR platforms by any stretch of the imagination and to make a long range shooter out of one will likely require replacing the stock and/or the barrel. You may find one now and then that shoots very well, but I very much doubt that you find any that consistantly shoot .5 MOA out 500 yds with little to no work other than load development, which is IMO, the minimum standard for a good LR rifle.

The OP has stated that he has about $1000 to spend on a dedicated LR rfile. So my question to anyone here is, with that budget... what would you recommend? A Sendero, a Savage, a Sub MOA Vanguard or an SPS? I know what my answer would be and I know what I definitely would not advise. IMO, suggesting that an SPS is a good and likely LR platform is il-advised and will lead to a big disappointment. There is a reason that SPS's cost half as much as Snedoros and there is a reason that Senderos sell very well for twice as much. Think about it. Look at them both, handle both and shoot both.

Mark

 

[liltank]

I'm still sticking to my guns on a Savage. You can buy two Savages for the price of a Sendro if you do your homework. The one could stay its caliber of choice and the other could be opened up to a heavy caliber, and buy the right bolt head to match.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I'm still sticking to my guns on a Savage. You can buy two Savages for the price of a Sendro if you do your homework. The one could stay its caliber of choice and the other could be opened up to a heavy caliber, and buy the right bolt head to match.

Tank

Tank,

I'm going to have to take a good look at these Savages. I've read a lot of good things about them. I have also read a few comments (which might be unsubstantuated opinion) that there actions are not as good as the 700.

Mark

 

[liltank]

Tank,

I'm going to have to take a good look at these Savages. I've read a lot of good things about them. I have also read a few comments (which might be unsubstantuated opinion) that there actions are not as good as the 700.

Mark

Think of this way... (just work with me on this) what's it take to adjust the accu-trigger? A little tool that comes with the rifle. What's it take to change caliber? A spanner wrench to loosen the ever loathed barrel nut (which I don't find unattractive) screw everything apart, put the caliber of choice on for the day set your head spacing (10 to 15min job if you know what your doing). Pull the bolt out, unscrew the bolt assembly screw, put the correct bolt head in place (free floating for accuracy) and put back together. The stock is of indecent quality, unless you get their laminate, accul-stock, or any of the precision stocks offered in their tatical line. I will say that there non-accu-stock synthetic is very tupperwarish, but it is pillar bedded and offers very good accuracy.

So after following those steps, you now have gone from a 17Fireball to a 338 Lapua or Edge in a matter of 15 minutes. If you write the scope settings down, you find your zero on your previous settings in the caliber, bench it to ensure your zero (may have to make a minor adjustment because you took the action out of the stock, accu-stock that is not a concern or if you have Devcon put to it) and go hunting or F-class shooting.

How many guns can you do that without having to spend money on a smith to set your trigger, pull your barrel off, or spare the expense of another entire bolt assembly? The only extra expense you will have is a bedding job if you can't do it yourself, the price of the new barrel and having it threaded to match the action and a muzzle break if you want one, the spanner wrench, a bench vice if you need one to help hold the barrel or action, and head spacing gauges.

Some companies like Shilen, and Lothar Walther offer drop-ins that are pre-threaded. All you have to do is screw them in and head space them. Short of the high end multi thousand dollars rifles that allow you to switch barrels with a few screws, it doesn't get much better. That is why I like the Savage line. I'm sure their sales department has thought about this, but they know most people are to lazy or scared to try it on there own. There only a few, maybe 6-7% which is probably high, of hunters who are willing to smith their own rifles.

Sorry it's so long. Just wanted to try and explain my position on these rifles.

Tank

 

[ATH]

First off, I hope no one misunderstands my comments regarding "standard" Rem 700's. I am not knocking them and they are no doubt a good rifle for the average hunter and that is the market that Remington produces them for. But this site is the LR Hunting site and 500 yds is what most here would consider the beginning of LR. Some would not consider it even that.

I have two Senderos that shoot very well. The 300 RUM has shown me consistant accuracy in the .5 MOA range out to 500 so far and as of yet I haven't got it out farther than that but expect good things out of it. The 25-06 hasn't been shot out to 500 yet, but it shows slightly better accuracy potential (with a fire craked bore) than the 300 RUM. This is typical accuracy for Senderos. You do not hear or read this about BDL's, SPS's, etc. Once again... if you read the threads and posts on this site, which is a site dedicated to LR shootling and hunting you will find many, many posts about the good accuracy of Senderos and Savages. You will also find quite a few on Vanguartds and Howas. You will find precious little on BDL's and SPS's. The reason for this is that the cream naturally rises to the top.

Most standard 700's come with plastic or wood stocks that are not pillar or full aluminum bedded stocks. This is NOT a good platform for relaible and consistant LR shooting from 600-1000 yds. They also have factory sporter contour barrels which are not the best set up for LR but typically work fine out to 500 yds. These rifles are just plain and simple not LR platforms by any stretch of the imagination and to make a long range shooter out of one will likely require replacing the stock and/or the barrel. You may find one now and then that shoots very well, but I very much doubt that you find any that consistantly shoot .5 MOA out 500 yds with little to no work other than load development, which is IMO, the minimum standard for a good LR rifle.

The OP has stated that he has about $1000 to spend on a dedicated LR rfile. So my question to anyone here is, with that budget... what would you recommend? A Sendero, a Savage, a Sub MOA Vanguard or an SPS? I know what my answer would be and I know what I definitely would not advise. IMO, suggesting that an SPS is a good and likely LR platform is il-advised and will lead to a big disappointment. There is a reason that SPS's cost half as much as Snedoros and there is a reason that Senderos sell very well for twice as much. Think about it. Look at them both, handle both and shoot both.

Mark

I absolutely agree with each and every one of your points in principle. I guess when I hear about people wanting to get into the LR game, I assume that they need to build their skills as well as their equipment and a cheaper setup will get them the trigger time at what many on here would consider medium range. The base action can then be build upon as money and skills dictate....tune the trigger, eventually pillar bed into a better stock, then rebarrel when you fry the factory one. You may be able to find a used Sendero for $1000 but the MSRP is now north of $1300 so I trusted that a $1000 budget is a $1000 budget. Given what I have heard about the SFII's I'd almost recommend finding a used SFI, it'll be cheaper and you'll likely get a better rifle.

Regarding Savage actions -- I just bought my first one and have had it apart and back together several times. Overall, I am of the opinion that they are inferior to the Rem700 action. HOWEVER, they deliver excellent quality for the price and cycle smoothly. The feature I like most is that you can do absolutely anything to a Savage action with no need for a gunsmith, including barrel replacement. This is a huge advantage to someone with some basic tools and skills, and allows one to truly upgrade the gun as resources allow without allocating additional resources to gunsmithing bills.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Think of this way... (just work with me on this) what's it take to adjust the accu-trigger? A little tool that comes with the rifle. What's it take to change caliber? A spanner wrench to loosen the ever loathed barrel nut (which I don't find unattractive) screw everything apart, put the caliber of choice on for the day set your head spacing (10 to 15min job if you know what your doing). Pull the bolt out, unscrew the bolt assembly screw, put the correct bolt head in place (free floating for accuracy) and put back together. The stock is of indecent quality, unless you get their laminate, accul-stock, or any of the precision stocks offered in their tatical line. I will say that there non-accu-stock synthetic is very tupperwarish, but it is pillar bedded and offers very good accuracy.

So after following those steps, you now have gone from a 17Fireball to a 338 Lapua or Edge in a matter of 15 minutes. If you write the scope settings down, you find your zero on your previous settings in the caliber, bench it to ensure your zero (may have to make a minor adjustment because you took the action out of the stock, accu-stock that is not a concern or if you have Devcon put to it) and go hunting or F-class shooting.

How many guns can you do that without having to spend money on a smith to set your trigger, pull your barrel off, or spare the expense of another entire bolt assembly? The only extra expense you will have is a bedding job if you can't do it yourself, the price of the new barrel and having it threaded to match the action and a muzzle break if you want one, the spanner wrench, a bench vice if you need one to help hold the barrel or action, and head spacing gauges.

Some companies like Shilen, and Lothar Walther offer drop-ins that are pre-threaded. All you have to do is screw them in and head space them. Short of the high end multi thousand dollars rifles that allow you to switch barrels with a few screws, it doesn't get much better. That is why I like the Savage line. I'm sure their sales department has thought about this, but they know most people are to lazy or scared to try it on there own. There only a few, maybe 6-7% which is probably high, of hunters who are willing to smith their own rifles.

Sorry it's so long. Just wanted to try and explain my position on these rifles.

Tank

Tank, no need to appologize for the lenght of your post There's a lot of good info in it, most of which I have read before. You make a lot of good points and if I was in the market for a new rifle I would give the Savages a hard look. I have handled one in the store once and I actually do not like the accutrigger, but that's more of a vanilla vs chocolate thing.

The idea of being able to switch barrels/cartridge so easily is very cool and when I get my Senderos rebarreled, I'll probably have them set up to do just that.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[liltank]

Can you set up a Sendro with a barrel nut system? As far as the trigger is concerned, you could always put a Rifle Basix trigger or a Timney. I have heard good reviews on both. There are some custom builders that they make on their own that work well also.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I absolutely agree with each and every one of your points in principle. I guess when I hear about people wanting to get into the LR game, I assume that they need to build their skills as well as their equipment and a cheaper setup will get them the trigger time at what many on here would consider medium range. The base action can then be build upon as money and skills dictate....tune the trigger, eventually pillar bed into a better stock, then rebarrel when you fry the factory one. You may be able to find a used Sendero for $1000 but the MSRP is now north of $1300 so I trusted that a $1000 budget is a $1000 budget. Given what I have heard about the SFII's I'd almost recommend finding a used SFI, it'll be cheaper and you'll likely get a better rifle.

ATH, I agree with the idea of a less expensive starter gun but I think the Sendero is very close to the budget of the OP. With the Sendero you have both a good stock (which wont have to be replaced) and a good action which will be both a good platform to learn on and build on. It's true that the MSRP is $1300 plus, but you can get them on gunbroker for $1030 plus shipping, plus FFL fee.

I also like the older SF's and If want another Sendero I would wait for one on gunbroker or in the local paper.

BTW, I just looked at the REM site and it's been recently changed. They are offering an XCR Tactical Long Range Rifle. They dont show any cal specs though. It also looks like they have dropped the 300 RUM from the SF II and added the 22-250.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Can you set up a Sendro with a barrel nut system? As far as the trigger is concerned, you could always put a Rifle Basix trigger or a Timney. I have heard good reviews on both. There are some custom builders that they make on their own that work well also.

Tank

Tank, yup... I believe just about any rifle can be set up that way. It just requires some extra smithing. Savage's advantage is they come that way.

 

[JUDD]

My experience with Savage has not been stellar...I only had one so I didn't give them their fair shake but by the time I got it to shoot half descent I had enough money wrapped up into it that I could have built a custom gun from scratch.....It happened to be the Law Enforcement model with the Mcmillan stock in 308....It did shoot good when I was done but If I could of did over I would have went Remmy all the way.

It looked good I give it that but on many many occasion I would have loved to run over that **** thing with my truck

I am in no way saying they are all like this and I doubt they are but it was my first savage experience and unfortunatly for them it made it my last savage experience.

 

[ATH]

It also looks like they have dropped the 300 RUM from the SF II and added the 22-250.

I noticed that too. Very strange to me.

 

[Chas1]

Yes, I would recommend any Remington. A friend of mine bought a SPS Varmint for his 15 yr. old son in 7mm-08 (my advise on caliber) that shot 5/8" groups at 100 yds. with factory ammo. My dads SPS in .223 shot 3/4" groups with Barnes TSX's handloads. My 7mm-08 LVSF shot 1/2" groups with 150 gr. Matchking handloads. And my friends XCR in 300 RUM shoots 3/4" with 168 TTSX handloads. Have also shot BDL in 30-06 that shot just shy of an inch with factory ammo and also shot another in 270 ADL that shot about 3/4" with NBT handloads. And last and not least is my old 264 Win. Mag. ADL Synthetic that shot 1/2" with 129 SST handloads. These are the ones that I can remember, again, none shot over 1MOA at 100 yds. Plus a ton more at the range of people asking me for help when sighting in, specially the 308 PSS.

So that's why I say Remington is the way to go, plus if you shoot the barrel out you have a great action to build on.

-X3M

Rare, sounds like you got all the good ones. For the most part these are the cheaper remys and based on your accounting quite accurate. I am curious though. Why do you almost consistently reccomend the Sendaro and not the remington cheapys. I'm also curious given your real enjoyment for hunting why you don't hunt with any remys, let alone the cheapys or even the Sendaro? Lastly I'm curious why in F-class did you go from the very competitive remy to a 6.5-284 built on a Lawton 7500 action?

I'm not saying your claim that you have yet to come across a Remington 700 that won't shoot under 1MOA out of all the remy you've owned, new someone who owned or the many at the range you've seen or the ones you outlined above, isn't true but when it so differs from what most folks have experienced particularly with the cheapy rems then it requires a further look. So to quote from an earlier post from you to me. Would you care to elaborate on such a claim