TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

Bruce Hanson said:
I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right? Wrong?
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Can't really address your question without knowing where you shot the coyote. Did you do a post on his carcass?
 
Outdrmn said:
Think I stirred up the pot a bit around 10 pages back🤣 been an interesting read on the reactions.
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Pass more Popcorn. I'm running low.
Where is that meme
 

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fordy said:
Gday heat and fam
Seems like you've got a case of Chinese whispers giving you the run around
So let's work through the following to clear that up

I chewed on this for a bit & I don't know what pill a dtac is ( no I haven't used everything) or is it abbreviated to something I may no 🤷‍♂️

You must be mistaken me for someone else as I didn't pull these out of the freezer 😜
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& never used gel let alone touched it or seen it personally

Now I have been known to shoot critters and put them in a cool room or like & did just this with the vitals of a stag from last night ( I only briefly took notes & videoed but the finer details of the autopsy are yet to be done hence lungs & heart have been put in fridge till I get to them tomorrow)
So if that is what you are on about yes I'll put my hand up for that 🤚
But predominately I autopsy a lot of animals in the field as a lot of my critters are left to rot or gathered where can & put in a hole


Yes I test hammers but I am also in the process of testing apex OEP badlands atomic29 eldm ATip that list has a few more to add but I'll save that for another time & get to the other part to fill you in so you can go back to your source with the actual facts & stop these whispers

Now also on my testing I purchase my own projectiles as I don't like handouts

but clarity I have received a few off the hammerboys I think that's around 300 🤷‍♂️which I can go through in a day on critters
My total number of hammers I've used now I've got no idea & im going to guess it's ticked over to a few now ( no I won't put my numbers out as that gets some in a pickle )

Now the other one that I talked to mark ( the owner of apex ) sometime ago & all I have to do is let him know what I want & he will send no charge but once again I'm not @ ease with that so I may just go my normal route 🤷‍♂️
So does that make me a apex tester a OEP tester a badlands tester etc
No it's I choose to test those companies & the numbers of hammers I've shot are a small sample compared to some of the others

Also for clarity Steve offered to employ me which I declined as I like doing my thing not answering to anyone or time scheduling

Now the atip intrigues me as I've stated for some time here & sourced information on them here but I've not been able to source enough data for clarity on that design
The eldm I've tested previously on a lot of numbers & the amax was a favourite of mine for a lot of years but I've had a snippet of information come through that the eldm has changed a touch from its original
& seeing I've done a lot of work with that pill I've got a great base to see if it has changed or just Chinese whispers

Also note that I didn't put up weights as it can't be put down as a broad statement of that pill as ea pill has different characteristics & a 150 gr is vastly different to a 200 gr regardless of brand & it's working out where & ea of these preform in the field that will give the greatest consistency

& ONCE AGAIN I DONT CARE WHAT ITS CALLED ITS WHAT IT DOES THATS IMPORTANT

now onto your 45-70 comment

I ask this
From those early days of those 45-70 bullets have they improved to today's 🤔🤔
I assume that goes with a answer of yes from you
& why do I assume this
Pretty simple & you gave the hint in your opening line in the post I quoted above

Yep Your using a 115 dtac pill in your creed & this is a advancement in technology from the previous advancements in technology and the ones before that 👍

No different than I'm looking at the eldm again now along with the ATip ( which is not for me it's for a mate as so far he has his pill that works yes but he is trying to get a little bit more as we tried the ceb lazer but that didn't stack up for his use

So hopefully that helps you a little more

I am not a expert & don't claim to be & never have but I do know my stuff pretty well & just post what I do well to help others & if you don't want my help just say so & I'll move on & lastly I'm @ my limit on pictures on this post so I'll add some more for you to consider if you want on That I autopsy critters also so you don't either go off Chinese whispers or go barking up the wrong tree

Cheers
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How did you get the giraffe and buffalo in your freezer to shoot holes in later? 😉
I think "heat and fam" is no longer with us. How sad. 😆
Keep up the great work. I learn and enjoy reading your posts very much.
Thank you ❤️👍🏻
Hey. I finally got through whole thread... 😁
 
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Ok back when 12 years or whatever when this came up. I wondered, because I will hammer a elk at almost any angle, that's why I bring the big tool. I set up rear leg bone on target at 300, blew in chunks.Then I put the knuckle at hip joint on the OSB backer, at 300 hit it center and blew the bone along with about a 1 ' square of the board away. I was satisfied.Im over gunned for most things I shoot and Im going to work on some lighter grain options. I have 2 boxes of 240 BD's and box 250 Berger.Joint is broken I have pushed together
targets 002.jpg
 
fordy said:
Gday cabelasken
😜🤣🤣
Good to see some humour worth another 👍
Cheers
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on my second Idaho bull elk hunt I took a stand about 1/2 mile down a trail where it looked like two bedding area trails met up. About 25 minutes after shooting lite a 6x6 bull came up one of the trails and walked out from behind a brushpile at 85 yards and I drilled him thru the middle of the lungs. The bull turned and ran straight towards me and I could see blood spurting from both sides of his body! At 30 yds he stopped and looked around but I had already put down my rifle, knowing the bull was dead on his feet. Anyhow after a lot of help from a lot of other non resident hunters, we got the bull into the back of my friends pickup and headed to town. On the way to our motel we stopped at a bank so my friends could pick up some cash for dinner. While in line for the teller, they heard the hunters in front of them talking about a Korean guy that killed a bull on the mountain that day. When those guys came out of the bank, they gave me a dirty look as they passed the truck and they took note of our out of state license plate. My friends now have a standing joke with me and some call me the "Korean" guy. I know we asians look somewhat similar, but not that much!!!
 
First off my thinking only, certain bullets have certain applications/results on game but only depends on what bullet hits what at what range/velocity/angle/etc..
I've never had the need or want to shoot a target bullet at game because in 45 years of shooting elk, deer, lope, bighorn, etc. I've never had to or really want to take a shot over 600 yds. ( Oh ! Maybe im on the wrong forum) Whatever. Get over it. I don't know and really don't give a rat's *** what's considered long range or to qualify to be on this site. Been here I think 13 years. Enjoyed it. Surprised haven't been banned a few times . What gets me is when somebody tries to say one component is the end all to everything. Example, target bullets are the best killers. I think. Yes, they could be. Especially long range. But I don't hunt and expect to shoot 700 to 1500 yds. My loads are for 100 to 600 yds. and if conditions are perfect maybe I'll try my longest shot. I'm not into testing my longest shot with a chance of a bad shot on game. I don't really care where others like to aim on an animal but I like shoulder shots. Break a shoulder and take out lungs. Drop right there. Works for me 95% if the time. If not they drop within yards. I've shot "The crease", heart etc. and watch them run until die. Could be down in a canyon that I'll have to pack up and out. Done that. Don't like it at my age anymore. I won't say how many elk, deer and lope I've shot but it's enough for me to know where to hold, how far I can shoot and with what bullet. I'm not so closed minded I only use one bullet type or Brand. Every rifle I have is set up for certain bullet and load. Example, the most accurate in these rifles without giving powder, etc.. 300 RUM 215 Berger hybrid. Was Barnes 180 TSX and TTSX for many years with factory barrel. 300 WM 180 Hammer Hunter. 7mm Rem Mag. 168 Berger VLD. 6.5 PRC 156 Berger Hybrid and Hammer Hunter 123/124. 6.5 Creed 143 ELDX. 257 Weatherby 100 TTSX. 243 Win. 100 Nosler Bal Tip. I won't get into 22-250, 223, 308 win., etc. I use different bullets for whatever it is I'm going to hunt and what range I expect. Not a Berger or Hammer fan boy one bullet end all. I'm sure one type is a kill all like what I've seen on here. Most are young and haven't lived long enough to try all that's come done the road. Hopefully they will and not preach that one particular bullet is the best for everything aka ELDM. Most bullets will work best at what they are intended for. Yes any bullet will work if you put it in the right place. Yes target bullets may have a better BC. That's great if you intend to go hunting and try to take the longest shot you can. Most ethical hunters try to get as close as then can. Not shoot until they can hit or hope to. At long range animals don't react the sound of the shot the same as closer. They may react to a bullet strike close to them but they normally don't run off. I know my limits. To each their own. Bang away.
 
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WYO300RUM, Darn difficult to argue with any of that.

And, likely you have more real hunting experience than the majority of armchair quarterbacks here. I'm humbled when I see the game that you've taken, self-guided, self-hunted, self recovered…..much without the benefit of vehicle or horse.

You would shame many that think of themselves as hunters! memtb
 
Brad Norman said:
Very well stated Sir. Matching the bullet with the proper cartridge / velocity and in accordance with the game you're hunting is all part of being a good ethical hunter. Your discussion mentions issues "close up" with very fast magnum cartridges but the same consideration pops up with more traditional cartridges and velocities. My Son and I have had tremendous results with the non-bonded Sierra Game King and Hornady ELD-M bullets in the great old .270 Winchester, and also the 6.5-284.

A few years ago he cleanly killed a good-sized Spike Elk at 702 yards with one shot from his 6.5-284 using the 147 ELD-M loaded warm, right at 3K FPS. The Elk was hit behind the fold of the shoulder and impact was a bit high of center. We'd practiced out to 1,200 yards so, with the good weather conditions and solid prone position he had, this was an ethical shot for him. The Bull lifted one front leg when the bullet hit, as if he was going to run . . . but then dropped in his tracks. He kicked his back legs twice then was DRT. This was not a spine shot. We've had other impressive results with Elk, Mule Deer and Pronghorn.

The ELD-M's (and A-Max before them in 6.5mm) have performed consistently but, as you say, when "up close" the standard cup and core projectiles are not necessarily the best choice. For shots at 200 and less we shoot a bonded bullet and it's surprised us to find the bonded pills really need no scope or hold adjustment. They impact very close to the same place at 200 (and closer) with the Game Kings or ELD-M's. Past 200 the more fragile bullets perform really well. We wait and don't hit shoulders on entry, (quartering toward) but they plow through just fine on exit (quartering away).

Thanks for posting your results and sharing your experiences with us.

Happy hunting!
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I have a memory on a bull elk shot that you stirred up. Before the up and down canyons that day I was broken up from quad wreck and thrown from horse before this happened. The third up and down different canyons after bull finally came back out after just saddling up ready to leave. 🙄 Got down to bottom. Gave range finder to buddy. Laid down on cactus. He said 543. I had my trusty factory Rem. 300 RUM . Awesome load with 180 TTSX. I figured 28 to max 30 in. drop. I knew how big a bull's shoulder to chest is. I held on hair and air on shoulder. Boom. He ran about 15 yards and turned around facing opposite way. I didn't know it but he was dead already. I saw still standing. Held same. Boom. Went down. Was like 15 seconds for both shots. When we got up to him I saw bullet busted through the left elbow of front leg into chest. Rolled him over and his right elbow was shot through into to chest. Buddy said dam ! You could put a rod straight though ! He had two bullet holes in his heart about 2 in. apart. I said that will never happen again. Cut up next day. Came in with pack horses. Was happy no griz or wolves got to him. Barnes TTX and TTSX are bone busting SOB's. Experienced same on other Elk and deer. Hammers kill quick also. Penitrait good but 4 pedals brake off and go wherever to cause damage. I've only found a few Barmes at longer ranges on off side next to hide. All but one the four pedals peeled back to double diameter and cut. Never had one animal with either go a few steps. I don't need a target bullet because I don't take shots over 600 yds. That's long range for me. Maybe there can be a short range forum for us short range old timers. I just never had the inclination to practice or shoot longe range. I've been a bowhunter since 16 years old. I always considered antelope hunting like bowhunting with a rifle. If you know what I mean. It's fun to try to get closer to their many eyes.
 
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memtb said:
WYO300RUM, Darn difficult to argue with any of that.

And, likely you have more real hunting experience than the majority of armchair quarterbacks here. I'm humbled when I see the game that you've taken, self-guided, self-hunted, self recovered…..much without the benefit of vehicle or horse.

You would shame many that think of themselves as hunters! memtb
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There's plenty of real hunters on this site. I know you are one. My days are numbered. Trying to keep up with knee replacement, etc. . We need to get together some before the wheelchairs 😉
Dam son . At least give me a like 😆
 
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WYO300RUM said:
First off my thinking only, certain bullets have certain applications/results on game but only depends on what bullet hits what at what range/velocity/angle/etc..
I've never had the need or want to shoot a target bullet at game because in 45 years of shooting elk, deer, lope, bighorn, etc. I've never had to or really want to take a shot over 600 yds. ( Oh ! Maybe im on the wrong forum) Whatever. Get over it. I don't know and really don't give a rat's *** what's considered long range or to qualify to be on this site. Been here I think 13 years. Enjoyed it. Surprised haven't been banned a few times . What gets me is when somebody tries to say one component is the end all to everything. Example, target bullets are the best killers. I think. Yes, they could be. Especially long range. But I don't hunt and expect to shoot 700 to 1500 yds. My loads are for 100 to 600 yds. and if conditions are perfect maybe I'll try my longest shot. I'm not into testing my longest shot with a chance of a bad shot on game. I don't really care where others like to aim on an animal but I like shoulder shots. Break a shoulder and take out lungs. Drop right there. Works for me 95% if the time. If not they drop within yards. I've shot "The crease", heart etc. and watch them run until die. Could be down in a canyon that I'll have to pack up and out. Done that. Don't like it at my age anymore. I won't say how many elk, deer and lope I've shot but it's enough for me to know where to hold, how far I can shoot and with what bullet. I'm not so closed minded I only use one bullet type or Brand. Every rifle I have is set up for certain bullet and load. Example, the most accurate in these rifles without giving powder, etc.. 300 RUM 215 Berger hybrid. Was Barnes 180 TSX and TTSX for many years with factory barrel. 300 WM 180 Hammer Hunter. 7mm Rem Mag. 168 Berger VLD. 6.5 PRC 156 Berger Hybrid and Hammer Hunter 123/124. 6.5 Creed 143 ELDX. 257 Weatherby 100 TTSX. 243 Win. 100 Nosler Bal Tip. I won't get into 22-250, 223, 308 win., etc. I use different bullets for whatever it is I'm going to hunt and what range I expect. Not a Berger or Hammer fan boy one bullet end all. I'm sure one type is a kill all like what I've seen on here. Most are young and haven't lived long enough to try all that's come done the road. Hopefully they will and not preach that one particular bullet is the best for everything aka ELDM. Most bullets will work best at what they are intended for. Yes any bullet will work if you put it in the right place. Yes target bullets may have a better BC. That's great if you intend to go hunting and try to take the longest shot you can. Most ethical hunters try to get as close as then can. Not shoot until they can hit or hope to. At long range animals don't react the sound of the shot the same as closer. They may react to a bullet strike close to them but they normally don't run off. I know my limits. To each their own. Bang away.
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Bang away indeed!
 

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