TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

WeiserBucks said:

No grizz, but I've taken a truck and trailer load of black bears with Bergers at close and long range, works just fine.

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I think multiple people of now taken grizz with 77gr tmk. I'm not that brave but I'd shoot one with a 225eldm out of a 300nmi in a heartbeat.

Grizzlies... me thinks the biggest baddest ugliest tasting medicine you can give them!!!! Someday I hope to go but doubt I will ever be able to afford it and if I do, it will be with a handgun... But as I type that I just remembered that the change in Canadian gun laws means that I can't ever buy another handgun and a 10 mm or 45 ain't going to cut it.

Black bears... (according to friends that are shooting them all the time on the farm and on neighbour's farms because they have become such a nuisance up here) shoot them with whatever you want to use. You don't need good ammo for them!!! Two years ago friend took care of 11 nuisance bears (all with permission from the conservation officers) and he used anything from his 17 Hornet, 223, 22-250, 220 Swift or the 243 because that's what he usually has one of those sitting by the back door to shoot coyotes hunting mice around the hay bales for the cattle. But they just shoot them and drag them into the bush afterwards. He's a pretty dang good shot though and basically it's from the back door to the garage or shop where they come in and eat the cat/dog food. His wife walked into the shop one time and here was a black bear lying on the couch that they had because the big doors were open.

I know they REALLY want Americans to start coming back to Saskatchewan to hunt bears. It's funny because in elk season you will see multiple black bears lying in the canola swaths and they are soooo lazy that they lie there and just move their heads back and forth and just eat.

I believe it was Ryan Cleckner who stated on a Hornady podcast that he prefers thair match bullet for hunting.

richhymas said:

I'm curious. Did you get an exit on this double lung cow elk? What was the approximate impact velocity? Our 225 match didn't exit at all. 2700 fps approximate impact velocity. 200 yard range out of a 300 PRC.

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The 225eldm has a thinner jacket and makes a very wide wound channel. I don't know this but my "geuss" is hornady did this on purpose to limit over penetration for law enforcement application. Hornady has official gel tests posted on their law enforcement site if you want to take a look.

"Target bullets blow up on shoulders"

How s the 6 mm 108 ELDM bullet expansion on Springboks with a Lung shot ?

referring to post # 109

Fortunate to get in on an elk damage opportunity this winter. This Neanderthal loads 162 Eldm's in a couple of tikka 7mm-08's. This elk didn't get your memo that target bullets aren't hunting bullets! Was just under 350 yards bedded quartering away so poa was a couple inches above the ground and a few ribs back. Jumped on impact, wobbled a couple circles and done Severed entry rib and chunked the second, bullet was lodged in the heart, weight 124 gn.
Think I'll keep use'n em.

Never had a deer walk off from either a 300WM 208 ELDM, or a 147 ELDMgr 6.5 CM.

Interesting in the pictures of the heart. I shot two elk one morning within a minutes or so in time. In the heart and the bullets were withing 1/2 of each other. Both were about 350yds. The bull was the one I took for me, and the cow was a finish up shot on a wounded cow elk, the other guy that was with me ask me too.
The bullets were about 1" lower on the heart and within 1/2" of each other. Both hearts were split down to the bottom of the heart and wide open. All done with a 165gr Nosler B.T. from my 308NM rifle. I was and still do use that type of bullets. Both bullets went through and through. The elk dropped in their tracks. The interesting thing was both spread there front and rear legs out to their sides. The cow was on a full run. It drop to the ground and slid up the hill about 20' or so, never move again. The other guy hit the cow in the gut. It had a coller on it, was easy to figure out the one to do the follow up shoot. it was a herd of about 8 animals. less 2. Don't ask me about how I did it, because I don't know. I also didn't want to spend a day tracking that wounded elk. I had done that the bay before and still lost it. I wasn't doing the shooting that day either. The guy was doing flock shooting with a Browning Auto in 7mm Mag.
I have been in enough fights here over target bullets and hunting bullets. That all I am going to say.

Gday outdrmn
congrats

Outdrmn said:

Fortunate to get in on an elk damage opportunity this winter. This Neanderthal loads 162 Eldm's in a couple of tikka 7mm-08's. This elk didn't get your memo that target bullets aren't hunting bullets! Was just under 350 yards bedded quartering away so poa was a couple inches above the ground and a few ribs back. Jumped on impact, wobbled a couple circles and done Severed entry rib and chunked the second, bullet was lodged in the heart, weight 124 gn.
Think I'll keep use'n em.View attachment 549816View attachment 549817 View attachment 549818

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The following is nothing to do with if a target bullet or hunting bullet as I've said previously I couldn't care less what a pill is called it's what it DOES!!!!!!! that's important & what we should imo take notice of
Observations here & thankyou for this information for people to understand the limits/limitations of a particular pill & why we need to access the actuals not assuming due to a dead critter

you were so close to a lost animal if

Oh yes the IF'S

But let's just step back a touch clear our heads for a minute & access what the pill did

First on wound channels or total penetration length the last 1/4 to 1/3 on average the wound channel reduces in diameter quite rapidly till it stops

The best killing ability of a pill is after it's gone through it's transition zone ( when the pill actually opens after impact) till the wound channel starts to taper off that once again is not stating a hunting or target bullet as ea brand ea style has different wound channel lengths & widths but all have it

So now we enter resistances
& these vary greatly within a critter eg between ribs into lungs
Hit rib into lungs
Your case hit rib into heart
Hit shoulder meat into ribs into lungs
Hit shoulder & bone into lungs between ribs
Then certain muscles present different resistances
Etc etc & the list goes on quite extensively & it's all well & good to say I'll wait for the perfect broadside but reality is often different & for those that disagree that's cool just keep shooting but Murphy will come along to someone that I guarantee


Now to how close you were to loosing that elk or a minimum a long track if no other pill was put into it & Jm2cw so please you or others pull my theory apart as I really want to know if I'm on the wrong track as I've not shot elk but a few other critters I have I'm basing this off with certainty & im assuming the elk are no different

So

a few things of interest on that heart shot
I assume a elk heart would be no bigger than 6to 8inches on where that pill entered its heart till it stopped ( length of that heart penertration of the pill )
& if ( yes ifs) this had only penertrated 1/2 the heart more than likely only one chamber would have been compromised on one hole not 2
Or let's say 8in less penertration & only just stopped @ heart now you've got no heart leakage so that will never kill & your rely on the extremely small damage to the lung only one lung I would say also will result in a lost critter or a long track

But I hear that's not possible as the pill made that far now yes totally agree if impact was same now move back 2 or 3 ribs so our penertration length is approximately the same or even greater length ( I'll leave other resistance alone as those creep in around here also ) as the angle was more than assumed as it happens so often in the field but once again we have some who don't have that issue as angles arnt what they would take but someone will & then you've got the critter is actually angled more than we assumed or animal movement on squeeze of trigger
Yes a lot can happen & most times it dosent but it certainly does

now increase the impact velocity of that pill on exactly the same shot & your pill retains less weight on the average & less weight on average will penetrate less ( c & c this holds pretty true but other alloys not as much) also a larger frontal dia to contend with

Now it may not of made that heart then also yes I've got no idea but once again I've seen this on many many critters & was once a energy dump fan boy & used a lot of eld or like which I've seen it play out enough to see the bigger picture but once again imo

Now I'll also state , lesson the length of that penetration requirement up & watch a great more damage to the vitals & more than likely a blown up heart or over caliber holes @ minimum

but

My world is not when things go right as you can see within this thread it's when they are on the edge or underneath what's acceptable that will show why on historical data 2 holes are more reliable than one
& you can get great results with a target bullet or hunting bullet just as you can bad

But observations like this & finding a pill that gives more consistency will give the greatest consistency overall

Well has on the numbers I've taken & always trying to find a better pill & once again couldn't care less if it's a hunting or target pill it's what it does in the critter that counts & one that if your happy to keep using that combo outdrmn that's cool as others also but just watch your angles & resistances & im sure all will be fine

I think the guys like Mike above have gone the route of a little more insurance built into his choice & one I'll second but ea to their own

Not having a go just pointing out what I've found to be the most consistent & to me consistency is key & a pill that shows that amount of penertration Murphy will show up for someone that I'm pretty certain of

Cheers

fordy said:

Gday outdrmn
congrats



The following is nothing to do with if a target bullet or hunting bullet as I've said previously I couldn't care less what a pill is called it's what it DOES!!!!!!! that's important & what we should imo take notice of
Observations here & thankyou for this information for people to understand the limits/limitations of a particular pill & why we need to access the actuals not assuming due to a dead critter

you were so close to a lost animal if

Oh yes the IF'S

But let's just step back a touch clear our heads for a minute & access what the pill did

First on wound channels or total penetration length the last 1/4 to 1/3 on average the wound channel reduces in diameter quite rapidly till it stops

The best killing ability of a pill is after it's gone through it's transition zone ( when the pill actually opens after impact) till the wound channel starts to taper off that once again is not stating a hunting or target bullet as ea brand ea style has different wound channel lengths & widths but all have it

So now we enter resistances
& these vary greatly within a critter eg between ribs into lungs
Hit rib into lungs
Your case hit rib into heart
Hit shoulder meat into ribs into lungs
Hit shoulder & bone into lungs between ribs
Then certain muscles present different resistances
Etc etc & the list goes on quite extensively & it's all well & good to say I'll wait for the perfect broadside but reality is often different & for those that disagree that's cool just keep shooting but Murphy will come along to someone that I guarantee


Now to how close you were to loosing that elk or a minimum a long track if no other pill was put into it & Jm2cw so please you or others pull my theory apart as I really want to know if I'm on the wrong track as I've not shot elk but a few other critters I have I'm basing this off with certainty & im assuming the elk are no different

So

a few things of interest on that heart shot
I assume a elk heart would be no bigger than 6to 8inches on where that pill entered its heart till it stopped ( length of that heart penertration of the pill )
& if ( yes ifs) this had only penertrated 1/2 the heart more than likely only one chamber would have been compromised on one hole not 2
Or let's say 8in less penertration & only just stopped @ heart now you've got no heart leakage so that will never kill & your rely on the extremely small damage to the lung only one lung I would say also will result in a lost critter or a long track

But I hear that's not possible as the pill made that far now yes totally agree if impact was same now move back 2 or 3 ribs so our penertration length is approximately the same or even greater length ( I'll leave other resistance alone as those creep in around here also ) as the angle was more than assumed as it happens so often in the field but once again we have some who don't have that issue as angles arnt what they would take but someone will & then you've got the critter is actually angled more than we assumed or animal movement on squeeze of trigger
Yes a lot can happen & most times it dosent but it certainly does

now increase the impact velocity of that pill on exactly the same shot & your pill retains less weight on the average & less weight on average will penetrate less ( c & c this holds pretty true but other alloys not as much) also a larger frontal dia to contend with

Now it may not of made that heart then also yes I've got no idea but once again I've seen this on many many critters & was once a energy dump fan boy & used a lot of eld or like which I've seen it play out enough to see the bigger picture but once again imo

Now I'll also state , lesson the length of that penetration requirement up & watch a great more damage to the vitals & more than likely a blown up heart or over caliber holes @ minimum

but

My world is not when things go right as you can see within this thread it's when they are on the edge or underneath what's acceptable that will show why on historical data 2 holes are more reliable than one
& you can get great results with a target bullet or hunting bullet just as you can bad

But observations like this & finding a pill that gives more consistency will give the greatest consistency overall

Well has on the numbers I've taken & always trying to find a better pill & once again couldn't care less if it's a hunting or target pill it's what it does in the critter that counts & one that if your happy to keep using that combo outdrmn that's cool as others also but just watch your angles & resistances & im sure all will be fine

I think the guys like Mike above have gone the route of a little more insurance built into his choice & one I'll second but ea to their own

Not having a go just pointing out what I've found to be the most consistent & to me consistency is key & a pill that shows that amount of penertration Murphy will show up for someone that I'm pretty certain of

Cheers

Click to expand...

24 pages say otherwise… But we all know where your allegiance lies…

fordy said:

Gday outdrmn
congrats



The following is nothing to do with if a target bullet or hunting bullet as I've said previously I couldn't care less what a pill is called it's what it DOES!!!!!!! that's important & what we should imo take notice of
Observations here & thankyou for this information for people to understand the limits/limitations of a particular pill & why we need to access the actuals not assuming due to a dead critter

you were so close to a lost animal if

Oh yes the IF'S

But let's just step back a touch clear our heads for a minute & access what the pill did

First on wound channels or total penetration length the last 1/4 to 1/3 on average the wound channel reduces in diameter quite rapidly till it stops

The best killing ability of a pill is after it's gone through it's transition zone ( when the pill actually opens after impact) till the wound channel starts to taper off that once again is not stating a hunting or target bullet as ea brand ea style has different wound channel lengths & widths but all have it

So now we enter resistances
& these vary greatly within a critter eg between ribs into lungs
Hit rib into lungs
Your case hit rib into heart
Hit shoulder meat into ribs into lungs
Hit shoulder & bone into lungs between ribs
Then certain muscles present different resistances
Etc etc & the list goes on quite extensively & it's all well & good to say I'll wait for the perfect broadside but reality is often different & for those that disagree that's cool just keep shooting but Murphy will come along to someone that I guarantee


Now to how close you were to loosing that elk or a minimum a long track if no other pill was put into it & Jm2cw so please you or others pull my theory apart as I really want to know if I'm on the wrong track as I've not shot elk but a few other critters I have I'm basing this off with certainty & im assuming the elk are no different

So

a few things of interest on that heart shot
I assume a elk heart would be no bigger than 6to 8inches on where that pill entered its heart till it stopped ( length of that heart penertration of the pill )
& if ( yes ifs) this had only penertrated 1/2 the heart more than likely only one chamber would have been compromised on one hole not 2
Or let's say 8in less penertration & only just stopped @ heart now you've got no heart leakage so that will never kill & your rely on the extremely small damage to the lung only one lung I would say also will result in a lost critter or a long track

But I hear that's not possible as the pill made that far now yes totally agree if impact was same now move back 2 or 3 ribs so our penertration length is approximately the same or even greater length ( I'll leave other resistance alone as those creep in around here also ) as the angle was more than assumed as it happens so often in the field but once again we have some who don't have that issue as angles arnt what they would take but someone will & then you've got the critter is actually angled more than we assumed or animal movement on squeeze of trigger
Yes a lot can happen & most times it dosent but it certainly does

now increase the impact velocity of that pill on exactly the same shot & your pill retains less weight on the average & less weight on average will penetrate less ( c & c this holds pretty true but other alloys not as much) also a larger frontal dia to contend with

Now it may not of made that heart then also yes I've got no idea but once again I've seen this on many many critters & was once a energy dump fan boy & used a lot of eld or like which I've seen it play out enough to see the bigger picture but once again imo

Now I'll also state , lesson the length of that penetration requirement up & watch a great more damage to the vitals & more than likely a blown up heart or over caliber holes @ minimum

but

My world is not when things go right as you can see within this thread it's when they are on the edge or underneath what's acceptable that will show why on historical data 2 holes are more reliable than one
& you can get great results with a target bullet or hunting bullet just as you can bad

But observations like this & finding a pill that gives more consistency will give the greatest consistency overall

Well has on the numbers I've taken & always trying to find a better pill & once again couldn't care less if it's a hunting or target pill it's what it does in the critter that counts & one that if your happy to keep using that combo outdrmn that's cool as others also but just watch your angles & resistances & im sure all will be fine

I think the guys like Mike above have gone the route of a little more insurance built into his choice & one I'll second but ea to their own

Not having a go just pointing out what I've found to be the most consistent & to me consistency is key & a pill that shows that amount of penertration Murphy will show up for someone that I'm pretty certain of

Cheers

Click to expand...

Over the years I have looked bullet wounds in as many animal that I can or allowed to look at. I've seen bullets that come apart and blood shot entire side of an animal. I had one expercience with that a great many years ago. I haven't use that type of bullet from that time going forward. Overall the BT or AB Nosler has been my go to bullet. I do push in my 25/06, 308NM, and 338WM at or around 3200fps. One is plus that by 100fps. In the two larger calibers. I am also over in powder by 5.5grs over max manual loads. I have taken lots of animals and mostly in one shot kills. Not all but far more than taking a second shoot. I also can figure out where to place the shot from about any angle and get into where chest area is. It allow the bullet to do it's job. Spent all day trying to track an animal I shot, and have spent other days doing the same thing for other people. I have tried the next day, and including others.
Bottomline is bullet placement and to take the care to place that shot where it needs to be. The 2nd elk I really figured it was more luck that skill, but at time it's better to be lucky and good.
Now I am switching to all copper bullet, and at the same time changing out or having rifles built to handle the copper bullet with increase twist rates. It'sd been an interesting world and I am glad to be here. I have my own ideals as to what I want and work towards them. I do share what I have learn over the year. Right or wrong. It's a great place to express what you come up with and learn from others.

fordy said:

Gday outdrmn
congrats



The following is nothing to do with if a target bullet or hunting bullet as I've said previously I couldn't care less what a pill is called it's what it DOES!!!!!!! that's important & what we should imo take notice of
Observations here & thankyou for this information for people to understand the limits/limitations of a particular pill & why we need to access the actuals not assuming due to a dead critter

you were so close to a lost animal if

Oh yes the IF'S

But let's just step back a touch clear our heads for a minute & access what the pill did

First on wound channels or total penetration length the last 1/4 to 1/3 on average the wound channel reduces in diameter quite rapidly till it stops

The best killing ability of a pill is after it's gone through it's transition zone ( when the pill actually opens after impact) till the wound channel starts to taper off that once again is not stating a hunting or target bullet as ea brand ea style has different wound channel lengths & widths but all have it

So now we enter resistances
& these vary greatly within a critter eg between ribs into lungs
Hit rib into lungs
Your case hit rib into heart
Hit shoulder meat into ribs into lungs
Hit shoulder & bone into lungs between ribs
Then certain muscles present different resistances
Etc etc & the list goes on quite extensively & it's all well & good to say I'll wait for the perfect broadside but reality is often different & for those that disagree that's cool just keep shooting but Murphy will come along to someone that I guarantee


Now to how close you were to loosing that elk or a minimum a long track if no other pill was put into it & Jm2cw so please you or others pull my theory apart as I really want to know if I'm on the wrong track as I've not shot elk but a few other critters I have I'm basing this off with certainty & im assuming the elk are no different

So

a few things of interest on that heart shot
I assume a elk heart would be no bigger than 6to 8inches on where that pill entered its heart till it stopped ( length of that heart penertration of the pill )
& if ( yes ifs) this had only penertrated 1/2 the heart more than likely only one chamber would have been compromised on one hole not 2
Or let's say 8in less penertration & only just stopped @ heart now you've got no heart leakage so that will never kill & your rely on the extremely small damage to the lung only one lung I would say also will result in a lost critter or a long track

But I hear that's not possible as the pill made that far now yes totally agree if impact was same now move back 2 or 3 ribs so our penertration length is approximately the same or even greater length ( I'll leave other resistance alone as those creep in around here also ) as the angle was more than assumed as it happens so often in the field but once again we have some who don't have that issue as angles arnt what they would take but someone will & then you've got the critter is actually angled more than we assumed or animal movement on squeeze of trigger
Yes a lot can happen & most times it dosent but it certainly does

now increase the impact velocity of that pill on exactly the same shot & your pill retains less weight on the average & less weight on average will penetrate less ( c & c this holds pretty true but other alloys not as much) also a larger frontal dia to contend with

Now it may not of made that heart then also yes I've got no idea but once again I've seen this on many many critters & was once a energy dump fan boy & used a lot of eld or like which I've seen it play out enough to see the bigger picture but once again imo

Now I'll also state , lesson the length of that penetration requirement up & watch a great more damage to the vitals & more than likely a blown up heart or over caliber holes @ minimum

but

My world is not when things go right as you can see within this thread it's when they are on the edge or underneath what's acceptable that will show why on historical data 2 holes are more reliable than one
& you can get great results with a target bullet or hunting bullet just as you can bad

But observations like this & finding a pill that gives more consistency will give the greatest consistency overall

Well has on the numbers I've taken & always trying to find a better pill & once again couldn't care less if it's a hunting or target pill it's what it does in the critter that counts & one that if your happy to keep using that combo outdrmn that's cool as others also but just watch your angles & resistances & im sure all will be fine

I think the guys like Mike above have gone the route of a little more insurance built into his choice & one I'll second but ea to their own

Not having a go just pointing out what I've found to be the most consistent & to me consistency is key & a pill that shows that amount of penertration Murphy will show up for someone that I'm pretty certain of

Cheers

Click to expand...

Thank you for the information. You have legions of experience to speak from.

One thing is for **** certain, you don't hear much about bullet failures or lackluster performance from anyone about any kind or design.

I'll wager they occur more often from a lack of penetration, due to angles, accidental heavy bone encounters or close range impacts at higher velocity.
Some people act like they don't ever have a shot under 600yds, that's about the distance some of these thin-skinned B.C. missles probably begin to exhibit some resemblance of dual purpose performance. It doesn't hurt to bump up to large for caliber for extra mass, that is for sure.

An expanding bullet with a tough base and decent BC, and very good accuracy will be my choice the majority of the time until I gain more confidence in these jacketed explosives.
Nosler AB and BT hunting check my boxes, and that's easy to say after decades of results.

The 135 LRHT,153.5 LRHT, 180 HT and 190LRHT are going to get their chance moving forward on deer. And I WILL share subpar information in detail if Murphy decides to tag along. Personally I'd go up in the 200's for Elk sized animals or larger, I like to tilt the odds if there is an opportunity.

Phil Rizzo said:

Thank you for the information. You have legions of experience to speak from.

One thing is for **** certain, you don't hear much about bullet failures or lackluster performance from anyone about any kind or design.

I'll wager they occur more often from a lack of penetration, due to angles, accidental heavy bone encounters or close range impacts at higher velocity.
Some people act like they don't ever have a shot under 600yds, that's about the distance some of these thin-skinned B.C. missles probably begin to exhibit some resemblance of dual purpose performance. It doesn't hurt to bump up to large for caliber for extra mass, that is for sure.

An expanding bullet with a tough base and decent BC, and very good accuracy will be my choice the majority of the time until I gain more confidence in these jacketed explosives.
Nosler AB and BT hunting check my boxes, and that's easy to say after decades of results.

The 135 LRHT,153.5 LRHT, 180 HT and 190LRHT are going to get their chance moving forward on deer. And I WILL share subpar information in detail if Murphy decides to tag along. Personally I'd go up in the 200's for Elk sized animals or larger, I like to tilt the odds if there is an opportunity.

Click to expand...

Had a buddy shoot a cow with nosler ABs…shot her at 150yards from a 28 nosler, can't recall what organs were hit but it was a double lung at minimum…zero expansion, penciled right though and out the other side. Minimal blood trail even in the snow. Wasn't impressed…meanwhile, 200 yards up the draw, the lead cow dropped from a 215 hybrid at 100 yards, DRT, nice mushroom, expanded perfect and retained 90ish percent of its weight…dumped all its energy and stopped in the off side hide. I won't say target bullets are the end all, I've had good success with ELDX too, but my best wounding/quickest kills have been with target bullets, hands down.