I beg to differ on weight not being important anymore. Just how far were these animals shot at with the 22-250 and 243 with these light bullets? I would be willing to guess that it was maybe 200-300 yards and under? This is a longrange hunting website.
110 gr gsc elk bullet
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Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
GS CUSTOM BULLETS - ATTIE JANECKE PROFESSIONAL HUNTER
This was only at 345m. A man in Namibia has shot 17 gemsbok (500 to 600lbs) with his 22-250 and the furthest one was 378m. I have used my 224 wildcat on blesbok (150 to 170lbs) at 535m. So, probably not long range hunting but further than average. Eland I do not know the exact distances with 243Win. I do know that one hunter shot a zebra at just over 400m and an eland was shot a bit further but that was with a 140gr HV from a 300 Win Mag.
There are lots of examples where distance is achieved without using weight. Weight is simply easier to use but, with a bit of design and science, one could get far.
This was only at 345m. A man in Namibia has shot 17 gemsbok (500 to 600lbs) with his 22-250 and the furthest one was 378m. I have used my 224 wildcat on blesbok (150 to 170lbs) at 535m. So, probably not long range hunting but further than average. Eland I do not know the exact distances with 243Win. I do know that one hunter shot a zebra at just over 400m and an eland was shot a bit further but that was with a 140gr HV from a 300 Win Mag.
There are lots of examples where distance is achieved without using weight. Weight is simply easier to use but, with a bit of design and science, one could get far.
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
When a bullet has a good BC and less weight it will have a shorter time of flight and can easily equal the wind drift resistance of a heavier bullet. When a lighter bullet does that, it will shoot a flatter trajectory.
So, it gives the same wind drift but shoots a flatter trajectory with a shorter time of flight. If the animal moves at the same time as when the trigger is pulled, the point of impact is closer to the aiming point because the time of flight is shorter. Flatter trajectory means that the rifle becomes more versatile or that a turret can be used with less elevation.
What is not to like? One must make a head shift, for sure, but speed brings only good things here.
So, it gives the same wind drift but shoots a flatter trajectory with a shorter time of flight. If the animal moves at the same time as when the trigger is pulled, the point of impact is closer to the aiming point because the time of flight is shorter. Flatter trajectory means that the rifle becomes more versatile or that a turret can be used with less elevation.
What is not to like? One must make a head shift, for sure, but speed brings only good things here.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Lets look at a 270 WSM I know I'm capable of killing elk out to 1000 yards with it properly loaded at my elevation.
I know I can shoot a 110 grain bullet at 3600 fps so at 1000 yards with the GS HV 110 that gets me 1600 fps impact with 626 ft lbs of energy and trajectory looks like 19.6 moa and with a 10 mph wind gives me 7.2 MOA of wind drift.
Now lets take a heavy for cal 165 Matrix and run it at 3060 fps, it hits a 1000 yards at 1940 fps with 1378 ft lbs of energy, trajectory is 20.7 with 4.3 moa wind.
Now I'm no rocket scientist but I know which one I'm hunting with, if I were forced to hunt with an all copper bullet I would pull my barrels and twist them for a Cutting Edge 160 grain and enjoy a longer range, harder hitting bullet with less wind drift than a varmint weight bullet!!!
I know I can shoot a 110 grain bullet at 3600 fps so at 1000 yards with the GS HV 110 that gets me 1600 fps impact with 626 ft lbs of energy and trajectory looks like 19.6 moa and with a 10 mph wind gives me 7.2 MOA of wind drift.
Now lets take a heavy for cal 165 Matrix and run it at 3060 fps, it hits a 1000 yards at 1940 fps with 1378 ft lbs of energy, trajectory is 20.7 with 4.3 moa wind.
Now I'm no rocket scientist but I know which one I'm hunting with, if I were forced to hunt with an all copper bullet I would pull my barrels and twist them for a Cutting Edge 160 grain and enjoy a longer range, harder hitting bullet with less wind drift than a varmint weight bullet!!!
I would say that you are right Gerard if you are shooting 500-600 yards and under. But just like BignGreen just showed, the further out you go that lightweight bullet loses its velocity and energy way to fast for any longrange hunter and the wind drift isn't even comparable.
And don't get me wrong, I am not knocking your bullets. I am sure they are awesome for their intended purpose if kept under the right range. But for those that need a bullet that will get an animal dead at 1000 yards, it's not going to be a lightweight for caliber bullet. It's going to be a heavy for caliber bullet with a high BC that will get the job done at short and longrange.
And don't get me wrong, I am not knocking your bullets. I am sure they are awesome for their intended purpose if kept under the right range. But for those that need a bullet that will get an animal dead at 1000 yards, it's not going to be a lightweight for caliber bullet. It's going to be a heavy for caliber bullet with a high BC that will get the job done at short and longrange.
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I agree! I sure would like to see them in heavier bullets and competitive price in the US.
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
Let's get things in perspective here. tony m is using a standard 270 Win with a standard length barrel. GSC recommended a 110gr HV because he wants a bullet that will feed from a magazine and a bullet that will allow him to get as far out as is possible with the setup that he has. Apples to apples please.
Price - GSC will never match the price of swaged lead core bullets. GSC also does not have the problems associated with swaged bullets because we turn them. Couple that with the absolute quality control, where every bullet (not every tenth or 100th bullet) is inspected, measured and weighed twice (not once), and the price becomes what one would expect. GSC is in any case not the most expensive on the market, there are others that cost more.
He is not using a 270 WSM, so he does not have the extra 13 or so grains of H2O case capacity to push a longer bullet. He cannot use a 165gr Matrix bullet because the bullet needs a 1:9" twist rate and he has 1:10". If the case were bigger than a 270 Win and the barrel had a tighter twist than 1:10", of course one would use a heavier bullet so there is no point in comparing a 110gr GSC with a 165gr Matrix for his application.
Cutting Edge does not make a 160gr bullet in 270. Even the 140gr from CEB is a single feed and requires at least a 9" twist rate. It cannot be compared to a 110gr GSC and, if a different set of requirements are presented, GSC would recommend a different bullet to the 110gr HV. Try the Technical Data on our website, we give a lot of information that enables a user to make good choices.
Thank you, that is what we did because that is what the 110gr HV bullet was designed for. When a shooter has different requirements, a different bullet must be used. Where our website is not clear, I help with information as well and, if needed, we will do a custom bullet for a specific application if we do not have one listed.
Apples to apples, remember.....
There are longer bullets available, if the requirement calls for a longer bullet, but, as I said, weight is a secondary factor to using the correct bullet for the application.
Price - GSC will never match the price of swaged lead core bullets. GSC also does not have the problems associated with swaged bullets because we turn them. Couple that with the absolute quality control, where every bullet (not every tenth or 100th bullet) is inspected, measured and weighed twice (not once), and the price becomes what one would expect. GSC is in any case not the most expensive on the market, there are others that cost more.
Sounds good to me. Everyone has their own choice to make. I just would not choose to use a super lightweight bullet to shoot a large thick hided animal but again that is my choice.
Ditto!
The bottom-line is, "we" have plenty of good choices to choose from; and for that I thank all the bullet makers that constantly listen to the demands of the shooters' and hunters' like the members here as they push the envelope.
Happy safe shooting and hunting. Cheers!
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Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
When it comes to hunting thick skinned animals it does not get any thicker than elephant, rhino, cape buffalo and hippo. You can rest easy, GSC knows about thick skinned animals and fur and hair that is encrusted with mud and dirt.
The bullet maker has it's most difficult task at very close range. If a hunting bullet works at point blank range, it will get better as distance increases, until power drops off to the extent that penetration starts decreasing again. Penetration follows a bell shaped curve - Lowest at close range due to high speed and the pressure generated, improving as range increases and then back to lower again as power drops off.
Field testing done with the 110gr 270 HV bullet at 80 to 90m on kudu gave the same result and a further 15 field tests at varying distances gave us no reason to believe that the 110gr HV will behave any differently from any other HV bullet and therefore do what it was designed to do. In the two kudu tests, the animals were shot on the shoulders and the results were full, linear penetration on both and two broken shoulders on one and a near side broken shoulder on the other. In field testing we have yet to recover a 110gr HV and no user has ever sent a picture of a recovered 110gr HV. I have no reports or results beyond 500m. In range testing at 300m the 110gr HV follows the normal pattern of opening to a double caliber mushroom at 1600fps impact.
I am confident that the thickest, most mud encrusted skin on an elk or bear will not prevent the 110gr HV from getting the job done and I have been seeing this since 1999, after the bullet was first developed.
However, if you have not tried it, you will probably assess GSC HV bullets in your normal framework of experience and then not try them.
The bullet maker has it's most difficult task at very close range. If a hunting bullet works at point blank range, it will get better as distance increases, until power drops off to the extent that penetration starts decreasing again. Penetration follows a bell shaped curve - Lowest at close range due to high speed and the pressure generated, improving as range increases and then back to lower again as power drops off.
Field testing done with the 110gr 270 HV bullet at 80 to 90m on kudu gave the same result and a further 15 field tests at varying distances gave us no reason to believe that the 110gr HV will behave any differently from any other HV bullet and therefore do what it was designed to do. In the two kudu tests, the animals were shot on the shoulders and the results were full, linear penetration on both and two broken shoulders on one and a near side broken shoulder on the other. In field testing we have yet to recover a 110gr HV and no user has ever sent a picture of a recovered 110gr HV. I have no reports or results beyond 500m. In range testing at 300m the 110gr HV follows the normal pattern of opening to a double caliber mushroom at 1600fps impact.
I am confident that the thickest, most mud encrusted skin on an elk or bear will not prevent the 110gr HV from getting the job done and I have been seeing this since 1999, after the bullet was first developed.
However, if you have not tried it, you will probably assess GSC HV bullets in your normal framework of experience and then not try them.
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
weight doesnt matter???
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
Tikka mike
I think your fathers quote might just be eerily relevant to this thread.
I think your fathers quote might just be eerily relevant to this thread.
