Benefits of 129/130 gr bullets w 6.5x284?

[Custom66]

Brent and Custom, I wasn't being rude and it is nice to be reminded. I was just stating that I wouldn't even begin a workup or ladder without knowing the upper limits of a certain case/powder/bullet/primer combo and to let you know of the quick pressure spike of hybrid, imo its worse than 7828 or rl17.

Hey Backwoods, I have been thinking about your experience with Hybrid-100 in the past. If 49gr of it showed no pressure signs at all, 50 grains would not have been the reason you had a case blow apart . Makes no sense to go from A ok, to catastrophic results in 1 grain increase. I am not a reloading expert, but am a custom rifle builder. You had other issues, no doubt. Just a thought?

 

[backwoods83]

Sorry you seem to have reading problems as well. There was nothing harmed except a piece of brass rendered useless because of a severely enlarged primer pocket. No one on here is an expert and has all the answers but since you are so keen on the subject and a custom rifle builder, and a newb, answer me this 3 minutes after my post. What is the chamber neck size, freebore, and leade angle of a 6.5x284 Norma match, which is what almost everyone uses now including savage arms and cooper?

 

[backwoods83]

What's wrong, google not working fast enough for you right now? Lmfao. Just leave it alone before I get aggrevated and make an *** of you.

 

[Custom66]

Brent, hybrid100v is a sneaky powder, it peaks quick with no warning IME. I had a hunting rifle with a 26.5" barrel(would like to kick myself in the *** for selling it) I tried a pressure test with 100v and 140 amaxs from 46-50grns, 50 is hodgdons max for a 142 sierra, had the amaxs .030" off the lands almost .200" longer than there oal for the 142s, 49grn went 2963 with no issues whatsoever, so I popped the 50grn load in and sent it through the chrony, it read 3012, I was tickled pink that I could get 3012fps with 50grns of powder, until I had to pry my bolt open and when I go it open the case was stuck in the chamber and the primer was laying in the follower, I had to drive the 1.25$ useless case out of the chamber with a cleaning rod. Btw 210Ms were used for this test. They say it is supposed to be between 4350 and 4831 but in my experience it is an extremely short cut high energy version of Imr4350, actually just a tid bit faster burn rate wise, kinda like what rl17 was supposed to be, they had the same claims.

Hey tough guy, I spend a good portion of my day, fixing firearms and building custom rifles. I have more to do than sit on my computer, and heckle people. My reading is just fine. I like this forum, and was only trying to help a guy out. You never know who you may be talking to, or the experience they may have. I have used as much as 53gr of Hybrid, with no issues in a 6.5X 284. So I was curious about your findings. I would strongly suggest, not using this forum to fight, and rather, take your frustrations out on something else. You seem to be threatened when questioned,hmmm? Ya just need to back it down a notch. Remember, you butt in to our conversation, I don't recall anyone asking for your opinion. The only one you made an *** of, is yourself! Happy handloading.

 

[BrentM]

Can we put this to rest guys. This whole thing started as misunderstanding of who the post was intended to go and we have gone off track.

I think you both have good things to add and experience all can benefit from. Let's take a step back and not read so much into the posts.

I used to share my passion for off road motorcycle racing on some dirt bike forums. I raced on the USA ISDE team a couple of times and raced expert class and generally did just fine. Had some top 10 finishes at the national level blah blah blah. I was constantly dawged by folks on these forums. I didn't post a lot and didn't talk about my accomplishments but by god as soon as I gave an opinion some nut hump would bag on me. I quit those forums as I would get all sorts of anxiety about folks not understanding each other.

On another note. What is the benefit of shooting the 130 vs the 140 no matter the brand of bullet? I have not shot a 130 from 6.5-284. I assumed for me, shooting really long range on wolf sized targets I needed the highest BC possible to retain that energy. Dogs don't need the energy than heavier fleshed and boned animal do. Curious about the difference 10 grains makes.

 

[Drift141]

Can we put this to rest guys. This whole thing started as misunderstanding of who the post was intended to go and we have gone off track.

I think you both have good things to add and experience all can benefit from. Let's take a step back and not read so much into the posts.

I used to share my passion for off road motorcycle racing on some dirt bike forums. I raced on the USA ISDE team a couple of times and raced expert class and generally did just fine. Had some top 10 finishes at the national level blah blah blah. I was constantly dawged by folks on these forums. I didn't post a lot and didn't talk about my accomplishments but by god as soon as I gave an opinion some nut hump would bag on me. I quit those forums as I would get all sorts of anxiety about folks not understanding each other.

On another note. What is the benefit of shooting the 130 vs the 140 no matter the brand of bullet? I have not shot a 130 from 6.5-284. I assumed for me, shooting really long range on wolf sized targets I needed the highest BC possible to retain that energy. Dogs don't need the energy than heavier fleshed and boned animal do. Curious about the difference 10 grains makes.

I am also very interested in your question as I have also wondered the same thing. I have been debating this for awhile. I can push a 130 to about 3250 and a 140 about 3080. The only difference is my application will be for deer sized game, coyotes, and elk if I ever draw a tag!

So, is the extra velocity in the 130 an advantage over the 140 or will 10 grains make that much of a difference???

 

[BrentM]

3250 / 130
3080 / 140

At 1000 and 1300 the difference is not much with 140 holding more energy. Not a lot of difference in speed at those ranges.

You are getting 170 fps difference. I didn't think it would be that much.

The 160 matrix at 2700 actually has more energy as well at 1300. 550 fps difference at the muzzle but only 127 at 1300.

I guess it really boils down to the difference in accuracy and speed. Thoughts?

 

[Outlaw6.0]

3250 / 130
3080 / 140

At 1000 and 1300 the difference is not much with 140 holding more energy. Not a lot of difference in speed at those ranges.

You are getting 170 fps difference. I didn't think it would be that much.

The 160 matrix at 2700 actually has more energy as well at 1300. 550 fps difference at the muzzle but only 127 at 1300.

I guess it really boils down to the difference in accuracy and speed. Thoughts?

This being primarily a hunting forum, there is one key ingredient we are missing here. The very reason the Finn's revere the 6.5 for moose, that which comes naturally to the 6.5mm projectile..... Sectional Density. The ability to penetrate, hide, muscle, organs & bones. Sectional density baby

With that being said George Gardner DRT'd a doe 'lope at nearly 1300yds with his little 6.5 saum & 130 Berger..... Accuracy above all else?


t

 

[Drift141]

I would think there would be less wind drift with the 140. I like the extra ft/sec gain with the 130 but the 140 offers more of a punch due to the heavier weight. So it boils down to speed vs weight....

 

[backwoods83]

I'm done arguing anyway Brent, plus I don't even have a computer, I asked a simple question to a PROFESSIONAL that still hasn't been answered, but anyway back to the question at hand. In testing the bc of the 130 Berger can be raised from .552 to .579-.581 with a Whidden bullet pointing die, getting it close to the bc of .612 of the 140 Berger, but same goes for the 140s they come up to .639 give or take .001 when they are pointed, the biggest issue is with .188" freebore its harder to get close or in the lands with a 130 and still have sufficient bearing surface in the case neck. If you can find 130grn Norma Diamondline pills they are a good compromise, they have a slightly longer bearing surface than Bergers and they aren't as finicky, and when pointed there bc falls at around .598. Just be careful pushing any of these three bullets over 3250 in a true 8 twist, as I have had issues with them not wanting to go to sleep until 200yrds or more and on a few occasions I have had jacket/core distortion at those velocitys.

 

[Greyfox]

I am also very interested in your question as I have also wondered the same thing. I have been debating this for awhile. I can push a 130 to about 3250 and a 140 about 3080. The only difference is my application will be for deer sized game, coyotes, and elk if I ever draw a tag!

So, is the extra velocity in the 130 an advantage over the 140 or will 10 grains make that much of a difference???

For the two loads you are asking about using Berger VLD's at 5000 ft, 50F, at 1000 yards, 100 yards zero. Here is the comparison:

130 VLD at 3250 FPS. Drop 21.4 MOA, 10 mph wind 5.1MOA, 1730 FPS, 864 energy

140 VLD at 3080 FPS. Drop 22.9 MOA, 10 mph wind 5.3 MOA, 1731FPS, 932 energy

They are pretty close with a slight advantage in energy going to the 140 and the 130's shooting flatter at the midranges. I like the 140's because my rifles give better grouping at long range but this may not be the case with all rifles. Between the two bullets I would go with the the best accuracy at long range. I do think the terminal performance on game with the VLD's is better with the 140's in that they seem to hold together better at the shorter distances at a more moderate velocity. At long range the higher sectional density gives good penetration while still expanding and doing a lot of internal damage. If elk at +500 yards was my quarry I would prefer the 140's for this reason. I have had outstanding performance on deer sized game from 50-1000 yards with the 140's running in the 3000FPS range out of my two 6.5x284's.

 

[BrentM]

I'm done arguing anyway Brent, plus I don't even have a computer, I asked a simple question to a PROFESSIONAL that still hasn't been answered, but anyway back to the question at hand. In testing the bc of the 130 Berger can be raised from .552 to .579-.581 with a Whidden bullet pointing die, getting it close to the bc of .612 of the 140 Berger, but same goes for the 140s they come up to .639 give or take .001 when they are pointed, the biggest issue is with .188" freebore its harder to get close or in the lands with a 130 and still have sufficient bearing surface in the case neck. If you can find 130grn Norma Diamondline pills they are a good compromise, they have a slightly longer bearing surface than Bergers and they aren't as finicky, and when pointed there bc falls at around .598. Just be careful pushing any of these three bullets over 3250 in a true 8 twist, as I have had issues with them not wanting to go to sleep until 200yrds or more and on a few occasions I have had jacket/core distortion at those velocitys.

I have not looked into the die. Does it change expansion characteristics at all?

In regard to the freebore. Good point. Except my rifle loves .075 to .100 off the lands. It settles in really well at .100 for both 140 and 160's. I quit arguing with it and just deal with it. ha ha

Bearing surface is an interesting point. I can get berger targets to fly fast and accurate with seating closer to the lands with a shorter bearing surface. The surface of the 140 hunting is slower and needs to be seated deeper in case. Not sure I understand the science on this one but it was an interesting find while breaking and tuning my rifle.

Good feed back about the FPS, accuracy, and density. I never tested the smaller pills personally. I just went with the highest BC and worked on accuracy and speed. No real world experience just computer modeling.

 

[backwoods83]

Brent some will argue and bicker, saying that yes pointing the bullets changes its terminal performance. Unless it does it past 1200yrds I can't see any difference. It brings the point almost up as sharp or sometimes sharper than a poly tip and they do just fine, I know that the poly tip is supposed to aid in expansion but was originally designed to give more uniform bc's from bullet to bullet, same as pointing or meplat trimming or both. Outlaw said it best when he stated why the 6.5s have so much killing power, all about the sectional density, you're shooting 27 and 28 cal weight bullets in a 26 cal, in a nutshell. I have not had a chance to test the 160 Matrix yet but would love to try them over a case full of Magnum, Retumbo, N570, or AA8700 in a 30" tube and see what they are capable of. I can run 140s over 3200 they just get to finicky, so my sweet spot is 3166avg, so I'm thinking I can get close to 3k with 160s, maybe even point a few if I can get them, and see how they fly. Might work best in a 6.5x257wby with Retumbo, who knows.

 

[Custom66]

Brent, I was testing some various loads for a friend and found a bit of info interesting to me, and maybe you as well. A factory loaded 30-338, with a 190gr bullet, VS a 140gr bullet in a factory 6.5X284 both shot out to 1000 yards. At 1000 yards there is only 80 ft foot pounds of difference, and the 6.5 has better penetration because of sectional density. The 30-338 had the 80 ft lb advantage. It just concludes, that the little 6.5 is a very efficient projectile!!