Berger 156 EOL 6.5 fail?

[Trnelson]

I have previously experienced a similar result and was lucky enough to recover the bullet from the animal. Upon close inspection, it appeared that the meplat had necked over causing the jacket to shield the tip. It had impacted a rib on its way into the thoracic cavity. The wound through the on side lung showed no expansion. Subsequently, the bullet penetrated about nine inches in this fashion into the off side lung where inside of that lung it began to tumble exiting the offside lung sideways. It went through another rib sideways on its way out. It came to rest just under the hide on the off side in a banana shape having shed very little of the bullet.
After this singular odd experience, I wondered why and started searching for similar experiences and found a few. I started checking each bullet intended to hunt with a 0.038" wire drill and found a few that had some material inside the meplat or had jacket material that had migrated into the hollow cavity and obstructed the lead core.
Since including this simple step, in my experience, I have not had a single similar performance. Granted, I only have the opportunity to take six to eight deer a year and a handful of hogs so my sample size is limited to less than fifty.

 

[coop2564]

I didn't say any of that. What I said was I've had a literal 100% success rate with berger bullets on big game. That includes people that I've let use my rifle to get the job done. Specifically 180gr berger hybrid in 7mm (7SAUM/7WSM/7rem mag/7LRM or bigger cases) has resulted in the most bang/flop performances I've ever witnessed.

Obviously I can't resolve the conflict between those real experiences I've had and the videos you mentioned. That's why this discussion can be so difficult. There are an awful lot of people that are in agreement with me that the bergers tend to work quite well. If the discussion stays grounded, maybe we can all figure it out. If people tantrum out and start attacking one another... we're going to learn nothing.

To that point, what could it be? Ballistics gel isn't animals. That's one big disparity I can imagine right out of the gate. Another would be the fact that we're not all equal in our ability to place shots. Neither are we all equal on what we consider proper point of aim for those shots to be executed.

Agree with that. I have currently shot about 18 animals with 135gr classic hunters. None going over 60yds. All but one have been inside 300yds one at 577yds. My problem is the inconsistent nature of these tips. Most show to not open in a standard way of peeling open from hole, they tear open by being crushed and go to one side and start to tear-off jacket causing the bullet to turn and self-destruct if speeds are high enough. That causes very inconsistent bullet performance. The hole is so little I don't believe enough fluid can get in fast enough to cause hydraulic expansion, most of the time it just crushes and that crush doesnt allow it to uniformly peel open like most bullets, it starts tearing on one side causing it to spin apart and tumble to destruction. It is definantly deadly in most cases. But far from a great engineered repeatable performance IMO.

 

[bigngreen]

The bullets shot from Barbour creek were not downloaded. Neither were Johnny's.
Also these same guys shoot other bullets at downloaded velocities and do not pencil thru or tumble @ 2000fps like Berger's.

I know Barbour Creeks we're not but the other guy clearly had a low velocity round and a high velocity round that he had chrony number for which indicated down loading.
I've ran a meat processing shot that and we cut 2500+ animals a year, I've found and seen some odd stuff. I have never found a Berger whole or tumbled. I have found a lot of Partitions and Accubonds you could shoot again, Barnes always open at least just a little, but most of that I suspect has more to do with range, I'm certainly not calling a bullet that was put outside it's operating parameters failed.

The exit wounds on a tumbled bullet are quite different than an open bullet, I've seen Accubonds tumble or exit backwards, you'll find them mushroomed just enough to hang up on the hide and you'll find the base on through the hide. I've found unopened Accubonds behind game with impacts below 2200fps so if I'm running Abombs I shoot for an impact velocity about 2200 fps, some Bergers I have different lows for based on testing, like the 215 I know will open on antelope and elk down to 1500ish but a 7mm 180 Target I keep them up there. The biggest issue with any open tip bullet is the shooter has to be more involved in the process of choosing the right bullet in a line for the launch platform.

 

[orkan]

Agree with that. I have currently shot about 18 animals with 135gr classic hunters. None going over 60yds. All but one have been inside 300yds one at 577yds. My problem is the inconsistent nature of these tips. Most show to not open in a standard way of peeling open from hole, they tear open by being crushed and go to one side and start to tear-off jacket causing the bullet to turn and self-destruct if speeds are high enough. That causes very inconsistent bullet performance. The hole is so little I don't believe enough fluid can get in fast enough to cause hydraulic expansion, most of the time it just crushes and that crush doesnt allow it to uniformly peel open like most bullets, it starts tearing on one side causing it to spin apart and tumble to destruction. It is definantly deadly in most cases. But far from a great engineered repeatable performance IMO.

Yes, it seems that in every instance where meplat trimming was implemented... the inconsistent performance disappeared. Had a conversation with a customer a few days ago that indicated horrific splash wound using a 30cal Atip. Tip seems to have a LOT to do with how bullets perform, which isn't news, but perhaps there should be more emphasis on meplat trimming all around?

 

[bigngreen]

My dad likes sitting with any open tip bullet be it Berger of custom made and he uniforms them and checks all the tips and basically hand selects each one. I simply blow on the tips and the ones that don't whistle go to the load development pile and I have never shot or seen an animal shot with a Berger twice.
It's also important to remember exactly what they are designed for, accuracy first, they were never a designed hunting bullet, I've been shooting them since before Berger even though they might work, hunters talked them into the fact they werr working better than what we were shooting so they might want to look into that.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Yes, it seems that in every instance where meplat trimming was implemented... the inconsistent performance disappeared. Had a conversation with a customer a few days ago that indicated horrific splash wound using a 30cal Atip. Tip seems to have a LOT to do with how bullets perform, which isn't news, but perhaps there should be more emphasis on meplat trimming all around?

I was just about to ask if meplat uniforming could benefit OTM style bullets like Bergers. I recently lived up a meplat trimmer and some .040 drill bits to experiment with.

 

[smokey3]

Good story bro.
I just opened my emergency boxes and to my surprise they are now packed different?Thats great news now I can fix bullets that shouldn't need it.
Also they just added bullet tip cleaners to their website if interested?

That's some funny stuff right there whether you use them or not.

 

[gillettehunter]

Just for kicks and giggles. Last 3 yrs I've been running the 156 Berger in my 6.5SS. Around 3000 fps. I believe its an 8 twist barrel. I've shot that bullet 7 times at animals in the last 3 yrs. 7 dead animals. All deer and antelope at under 400 yds.
Used the 180 VLD in my 7 SAUM at 2900 fps. 8 twist. Used it in Africa last 2 trips. I think it's 23 dead animals. 21 were 1 shot kills. Longest was 2 Cape eland at 492 and 520. Biggest was a Livingston Eland in Zambia and was significantly bigger than my my cape buff. Shot him a second time but it looked like he was going down without it. The other multi shot screw up was my Thompsons gazelle. I rushed a walking shot and just wounded him. Took a couple of more shots to get him again. All shooter error and not the bullet. YMMV.
Bruce

 

[RockyMtnUT]

That's some funny stuff right there whether you use them or not.

No, it's not. What is funny is a fellow member that I will not identify pm'd me asking where on Bergers site are the tip cleaners listed since he couldn't find them. I still get a chuckle.

 

[BlazerBeam]

Accubond

 

[Kimber7man]

This is what I got with a Berger 7mm 175 elite hunter

 

[Idaho Lefty]

I sure do LIKE, the 140 Classic Hunters, in a .270 WSM launched at, 3,185 FPS for,.. Elk !
SOLD ALL, my AccuBond's ! They worked, but just,.. ok !
Bergers are, proving to be, a very Accurate and a deadly, bullet for, us !

 

[killintime71]

I don't have near the experience than most on the board, that is why I just read, digest and evaluate. Every creature (minus hogs)I have shot in the lower 48 has been with Berger 130 VLD and 156' EOL. All of the deer and pronghorns I have shot were DRT's, never recovered the slug, all exits, granted not an elk or heavy boned animal. The Axis I just shot was at my least favorite angle, quartering going away, but the lungs were straight liquified, not one step, exited intact through the neck. The Berger 156's will be my go to depending on draw this fall, elk or Oryx.

Entrance- Smoked the ribs, lungs, shock.

Lungs gone...

 

[dennisinaz]

But seriously, I've shot and witnessed hundreds of animals being shot with bergers from a 130 vld out of a 6.5 saum at 30 yards to 215's at 1000ish yards and everything in between.
I've only witnessed one exception to excellent performance. That was a 2020 WY antelope doe with a 156 out of my 6.5 PRC.
Hit her the first time at 592 and she ran off then stopped, thinking I missed, I shot again and no reaction from her.
Then she laid down and I shot her again, this time she flinched but head was still up so I hit her again.
Four shots total thinking maybe two hits…I get up there and start quartering and I find 4 entrance holes. Upon further inspection it seems the first two went straight through her without opening, much like a field point.
I started thinking maybe I forgot to check those tips (which I always do with a dental pick).
When I got home I took out the remainder of the rounds and about 1/3 of the tips were clogged including the next two I would have shot at animals.
I don't consider this a berger failure because I know better and I failed to check the tips.
Since then I've killed a few more animals with the 156 at 2915 muzzle velocity out of my 6.5 PRC including a bull elk at 885 last fall that died quickly after one shot which completely destroyed the heart and lungs.
So, if you are uncomfortable using them…don't. If you do use them please check the hollow point and kill effectively.

Those are failures and they're on Berger 100%.
The consumer should not have to modify the bullet to get it to work. If Berger says it's a hunting bullet they should make the tips accordingly. I have seen more 156 failures than good performances. They seem to have a very narrow velocity window. They're worse at close range, worse at long range compared to a regular 140 orange box