Homogenous copper bullets can be inhumane

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Honestly though, I think this would be a pretty boring hunting forum if you're not allowed to discuss ANYTHING related to ethics. I do, however, agree the heated debates should be avoided where a matter of personal opinions really take over.

I believe the main point of rule number 1 here, talking about ethics, in a "Long Range" Hunting forum, is to weed out anyone saying long range shots on animals is unethical, not so much in regards to trying to help people on their mission to success by addressing potential issues you could have using a certain bullet or bullet/cartridge combo.
 
This article leaves out a major portion of reality. It brands all copper bullets as worse than all lead core. The portion it leaves out is that each particular bullet must be matched properly to game and has an appropriate velocity window for proper expansion. I have killed multiple animals with both all copper and lead core. The few times that i have had issues with slow kills were with Parker match hunter bullets out of a muzzleloader. They shot amazing and i killed a lot of animals with them. But i had 3 instances with very good shots in which the animal died slowly. 3 deer between 135 and 212 yards. All were recovered, but all required follow up shots and lived for minutes. In one case i dropped 2 does (high shoulder shot) with one shot and recovered the unexpanded bullet from the second doe. Now in all fairness to bob parker he told me on the phone that they were made for smokeless muzzleloaders and not for cva with blackhorn. I no longer hunt with them. My point being if ethics are concerned, the lead vs copper argument is useless. If you shoot outside of proper velocity window for bullets they will not work properly. I love barnes bullets. I know they arent hammers (dont boot me), but i have reached out to the manufacturer for each one and gotten answers on what the minimum velocity is for good expansion. Based off of my loads and environment i use that minimum velocity to determine the max distance i can shoot at an animal to achieve good expansion and I have had 0 issues.
 
Petey308 said:
Honestly though, I think this would be a pretty boring hunting forum if you're not allowed to discuss ANYTHING related to ethics. I do, however, agree the heated debates should be avoided where a matter of personal opinions really take over.

I believe the main point of rule number 1 here, talking about ethics, in a "Long Range" Hunting forum, is to weed out anyone saying long range shots on animals is unethical, not so much in regards to trying to help people on their mission to success by addressing potential issues you could have using a certain bullet or bullet/cartridge combo.
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Yup I agree Petey308. The whole point of this webpage/ forum is to see field results. Learn about what works and what doesn't. At the bear min increase our odds of a quick, clean kill by understanding the characteristics of certain bullets.
 
xsn10s said:
Yup I agree Petey308. The whole point of this webpage/ forum is to see field results. Learn about what works and what doesn't. At the bear min increase our odds of a quick, clean kill by understanding the characteristics of certain bullets.
Click to expand...
And this is why we are all searching and scrambling for components, you let this slide and that slide and then there are no rules, as you said the simple fact that this post is still here speaks volumes
 
Petey308 said:
Honestly though, I think this would be a pretty boring hunting forum if you're not allowed to discuss ANYTHING related to ethics. I do, however, agree the heated debates should be avoided where a matter of personal opinions really take over.

I believe the main point of rule number 1 here, talking about ethics, in a "Long Range" Hunting forum, is to weed out anyone saying long range shots on animals is unethical, not so much in regards to trying to help people on their mission to success by addressing potential issues you could have using a certain bullet or bullet/cartridge combo.
Click to expand...
Easy Brother! I simply synthesized the article as choices and decisions have consequences, choose them wisely. We have the ultimate responsibility for our choices/decisions and the consequences associated with them.
 
tankgijohn72 said:
This article leaves out a major portion of reality. It brands all copper bullets as worse than all lead core. The portion it leaves out is that each particular bullet must be matched properly to game and has an appropriate velocity window for proper expansion. I have killed multiple animals with both all copper and lead core. The few times that i have had issues with slow kills were with Parker match hunter bullets out of a muzzleloader. They shot amazing and i killed a lot of animals with them. But i had 3 instances with very good shots in which the animal died slowly. 3 deer between 135 and 212 yards. All were recovered, but all required follow up shots and lived for minutes. In one case i dropped 2 does (high shoulder shot) with one shot and recovered the unexpanded bullet from the second doe. Now in all fairness to bob parker he told me on the phone that they were made for smokeless muzzleloaders and not for cva with blackhorn. I no longer hunt with them. My point being if ethics are concerned, the lead vs copper argument is useless. If you shoot outside of proper velocity window for bullets they will not work properly. I love barnes bullets. I know they arent hammers (dont boot me), but i have reached out to the manufacturer for each one and gotten answers on what the minimum velocity is for good expansion. Based off of my loads and environment i use that minimum velocity to determine the max distance i can shoot at an animal to achieve good expansion and I have had 0 issues.
Click to expand...
I can see your point and have mixed opinions on it. I think at the end of the article NF explains how several manufactures are dealing with expansion and trauma issues. The article might be older because i don't see some of the bullets that are heavily discussed on this and other forums. I think some of the new companies are doing a good job coming up with solutions. But no bullet is perfect, we have to know their strengths and limitations.
 
With some states requiring 100% copper bullets and others pushing for it, if they can stick the copper bullet as "un-ethical", then they will have the squeeze on us from both sides. Just my $.02. I don't think we should ever let a writer divide us over something like this. We all know (or should) what the parameters are for using certain bullets. It does make for discussion and got me away from my work for a bit ;)
 
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