Bullet construction

Hello sir,

Let me first say that I mean no offense but found your comment hard to follow and fully decipher, so I may not answer everything properly as a result.

From what I gather though, you were using a 220gr ELDX at a close range abd impact velocity was still very high, especially for the shot placement used. While the ELDX is a tougher constructed cup and core bullet, it's still not fully bonded and with such a particular shot, will still suffer from over-expansion and shallow penetration.

In your scenario, based on my experience and studies, a shot placement behind the shoulder, or in front if quartering-to, would have been better to lower how much resistance the bullet encountered upon impact. With most cup and core bullets, especially those not chemically/electrically bonded, I tend to tell guys to avoid impacting above 2600fps if at all possible, but at least avoid shoulder shots, and when you start getting below 2400fps, start actually aiming for shoulders. Obviously this depends greatly on the particular bullet, its construction/composition, and how much sectional density it has. The softer and more frangible a bullet is, the more sectional density you want. The tougher the bullet, the less you want, but ideally no less than .260 for most deer and larger game. The 220gr ELDX has an SD of .331 which is quite high for that type of bullet, especially for a 3100fps Impact on a shoulder.

Does this help? I could maybe elaborate further if needed or if I missed something. I also think I may have mentioned in other comments similar things regarding my rules of thumb on minimum and maximum impact velocities with the different bullet types.
Thanks petey308
Sorry some is probably Aussie slang & terminology other parts me

So are you saying we need to keep that type of projectile @ or below 2600 impact ?
So if that's the case how do you reach out to 1500 yards & still be covered to that 50 yrd shot

& also that 50 yrd shot has a lot more% wise of being a angled shot

I do note that better placed shots are part of the answer but a lot of times with either human error , animal movements or the case of obstacles in the way the perfect shot is not possible & a less than ideal shot is taken hence the insurance ea hunter builds into their combo
 
Hello sir,

Let me first say that I mean no offense but found your comment hard to follow and fully decipher, so I may not answer everything properly as a result.

From what I gather though, you were using a 220gr ELDX at a close range abd impact velocity was still very high, especially for the shot placement used. While the ELDX is a tougher constructed cup and core bullet, it's still not fully bonded and with such a particular shot, will still suffer from over-expansion and shallow penetration.

In your scenario, based on my experience and studies, a shot placement behind the shoulder, or in front if quartering-to, would have been better to lower how much resistance the bullet encountered upon impact. With most cup and core bullets, especially those not chemically/electrically bonded, I tend to tell guys to avoid impacting above 2600fps if at all possible, but at least avoid shoulder shots, and when you start getting below 2400fps, start actually aiming for shoulders. Obviously this depends greatly on the particular bullet, its construction/composition, and how much sectional density it has. The softer and more frangible a bullet is, the more sectional density you want. The tougher the bullet, the less you want, but ideally no less than .260 for most deer and larger game. The 220gr ELDX has an SD of .331 which is quite high for that type of bullet, especially for a 3100fps Impact on a shoulder.

Does this help? I could maybe elaborate further if needed or if I missed something. I also think I may have mentioned in other comments similar things regarding my rules of thumb on minimum and maximum impact velocities with the different bullet types.
Thanks petey308
Sorry some is probably Aussie slang & terminology other parts me

So are you saying we need to keep that type of projectile @ or below 2600 impact ?
So if that's the case how do you reach out to 1500 yards & still be covered to that 50 yrd shot

& also that 50 yrd shot has a lot more% wise of being a angled shot

I do note that better placed shots are part of the answer but a lot of times with either human error , animal movements or the case of obstacles in the way the perfect shot is not possible & a less than ideal shot is taken hence the insurance ea hunter builds into their combo
 
Hello sir,

Let me first say that I mean no offense but found your comment hard to follow and fully decipher, so I may not answer everything properly as a result.

From what I gather though, you were using a 220gr ELDX at a close range abd impact velocity was still very high, especially for the shot placement used. While the ELDX is a tougher constructed cup and core bullet, it's still not fully bonded and with such a particular shot, will still suffer from over-expansion and shallow penetration.

In your scenario, based on my experience and studies, a shot placement behind the shoulder, or in front if quartering-to, would have been better to lower how much resistance the bullet encountered upon impact. With most cup and core bullets, especially those not chemically/electrically bonded, I tend to tell guys to avoid impacting above 2600fps if at all possible, but at least avoid shoulder shots, and when you start getting below 2400fps, start actually aiming for shoulders. Obviously this depends greatly on the particular bullet, its construction/composition, and how much sectional density it has. The softer and more frangible a bullet is, the more sectional density you want. The tougher the bullet, the less you want, but ideally no less than .260 for most deer and larger game. The 220gr ELDX has an SD of .331 which is quite high for that type of bullet, especially for a 3100fps Impact on a shoulder.

Does this help? I could maybe elaborate further if needed or if I missed something. I also think I may have mentioned in other comments similar things regarding my rules of thumb on minimum and maximum impact velocities with the different bullet types.
Thanks petey308
Sorry some is probably Aussie slang & terminology other parts me

So are you saying we need to keep that type of projectile @ or below 2600 impact ?
So if that's the case how do you reach out to 1500 yards & still be covered to that 50 yrd shot

& also that 50 yrd shot has a lot more% wise of being a angled shot

I do note that better placed shots are part of the answer but a lot of times with either human error , animal movements or the case of obstacles in the way the perfect shot is not possible & a less than ideal shot is taken hence the insurance ea hunter builds into their combo
 
Thanks petey308
Sorry some is probably Aussie slang & terminology other parts me

So are you saying we need to keep that type of projectile @ or below 2600 impact ?
So if that's the case how do you reach out to 1500 yards & still be covered to that 50 yrd shot

& also that 50 yrd shot has a lot more% wise of being a angled shot

I do note that better placed shots are part of the answer but a lot of times with either human error , animal movements or the case of obstacles in the way the perfect shot is not possible & a less than ideal shot is taken hence the insurance ea hunter builds into their combo
Haha, it's fine. I actually talk with quite a few Aussies and have picked up on a lot of the slang. I think most of it was just how you broke it up.

No, you can still take shots with above 2600fps, but that's when where you place your shot is detrimental.

And if a guy is trying to reach out to 1500 yards for a shot, they're typically either double loading and have ammo for close range shots too, or they're not taking shots at all at close range at all, in my experience. I did say typically though. Some still use the same load with close range shots but have to be very particular about their shot placement. I see a lot of guys take head shots at close range. Obviously if it's a trophy, you might not want to do that. Hitting behind the shoulder is still a good place to hit, or in the chest if it's quartering or facing you. By hitting behind the shoulder, resistance is greatly reduced but you can still hit lungs and liver, which both hold an immense amount of blood and will still cause a quick death.

Ultimately, with a cup and core bullet, if you're going to impact significantly above 2600fps, you have to be willing to accept the bullet will experience a lot of expansion and not as much penetration, even with lesser resistance.

This is where I try to stress to people cartridge selection as well. A smaller, but more efficient cartridge and caliber can definitely help increase your range by means of boosted BCs and not require as much starting velocity.

Using a good balanced bullet with high BC, soft construction, and high sectional density can give you the best of both worlds as far as close and long range capability. For example, using a 208gr ELDM in a 300wm at 2900fps MV, you're below 2600fps at 250 yards already, so any shot under that placed where impact resistance is low but will still hit vitals, will still do well due to its high sectional density, and that particular bullet type is good to at least 1400fps and that load would hit that right around 1450 yards. So it's a well balanced load. I've personally used that load on deer at 40 yards and it still performed excellent placing the shot behind the shoulder.

Even my 195gr TMK load for one of my 308s is good to 1000 yards and also has been thoroughly tested inside 50 yards.

There's unfortunately no magical bullet that can do it all and extremely well. You're going to have to accept a loss in top performance potential when dancing around the outer limits of a particular bullet. Ultimately it does indeed come down to adjustable shot placement as required. I think a lot of guys don't understand just how much impact resistance matters and influences how the bullet behaves once it impacts and begins penetrating and expanding. Dense muscle and tissues can create more resistance than bone. Resistance through contracted muscle versus relaxed muscle is different too. Bones are also slightly softer inside the living body versus when dried out and dead, particularly shoulder blades. Even the centrifugal forces of the spinning bullet influence how it behaves terminally. A faster twist rate and MV will result in a more violently expanding bullet than a slower twist rate and MV due to higher and lower RPMs.
 
six out of 5 stars - like master of bullet studies - glad to see somebody else is sectioning bullets - I will frequently revisit this thread & post - any info as to annealing jackets?
I've played with annealing jackets, but found it easier to simply select a different/better bullet that'll do what I need instead. Nathan Foster has good info though about annealing jackets.
 
Haha, it's fine. I actually talk with quite a few Aussies and have picked up on a lot of the slang. I think most of it was just how you broke it up.

No, you can still take shots with above 2600fps, but that's when where you place your shot is detrimental.

And if a guy is trying to reach out to 1500 yards for a shot, they're typically either double loading and have ammo for close range shots too, or they're not taking shots at all at close range at all, in my experience. I did say typically though. Some still use the same load with close range shots but have to be very particular about their shot placement. I see a lot of guys take head shots at close range. Obviously if it's a trophy, you might not want to do that. Hitting behind the shoulder is still a good place to hit, or in the chest if it's quartering or facing you. By hitting behind the shoulder, resistance is greatly reduced but you can still hit lungs and liver, which both hold an immense amount of blood and will still cause a quick death.

Ultimately, with a cup and core bullet, if you're going to impact significantly above 2600fps, you have to be willing to accept the bullet will experience a lot of expansion and not as much penetration, even with lesser resistance.

This is where I try to stress to people cartridge selection as well. A smaller, but more efficient cartridge and caliber can definitely help increase your range by means of boosted BCs and not require as much starting velocity.

Using a good balanced bullet with high BC, soft construction, and high sectional density can give you the best of both worlds as far as close and long range capability. For example, using a 208gr ELDM in a 300wm at 2900fps MV, you're below 2600fps at 250 yards already, so any shot under that placed where impact resistance is low but will still hit vitals, will still do well due to its high sectional density, and that particular bullet type is good to at least 1400fps and that load would hit that right around 1450 yards. So it's a well balanced load. I've personally used that load on deer at 40 yards and it still performed excellent placing the shot behind the shoulder.

Even my 195gr TMK load for one of my 308s is good to 1000 yards and also has been thoroughly tested inside 50 yards.

There's unfortunately no magical bullet that can do it all and extremely well. You're going to have to accept a loss in top performance potential when dancing around the outer limits of a particular bullet. Ultimately it does indeed come down to adjustable shot placement as required. I think a lot of guys don't understand just how much impact resistance matters and influences how the bullet behaves once it impacts and begins penetrating and expanding. Dense muscle and tissues can create more resistance than bone. Resistance through contracted muscle versus relaxed muscle is different too. Bones are also slightly softer inside the living body versus when dried out and dead, particularly shoulder blades. Even the centrifugal forces of the spinning bullet influence how it behaves terminally. A faster twist rate and MV will result in a more violently expanding bullet than a slower twist rate and MV due to higher and lower RPMs.
Once again very well said and 100% correct IMO and this is where the Hammers really shine and I'll let Fordy explain, This is the same civil discussion I was referencing in your other post so we'll just have it here if that's ok with you
 
Once again very well said and 100% correct IMO and this is where the Hammers really shine and I'll let Fordy explain, This is the same civil discussion I was referencing in your other post so we'll just have it here if that's ok with you
That's fine with me. Honestly I know, having used plenty myself, that well-constructed solids do really well at close ranges because they do indeed hold together very well. It's absolutely one of their strengths. But to reference one of Fordy's examples, it's going to be extremely hard for them to perform very well, or really at all, at that 1500 yard example. They lack the density to have high BCs for their weight and length versus lead cores and simply won't have the retained velocity required for their already relatively high minimum impact velocity limit. You'd need to launch them very fast to start.

So, for true long range hunting, I don't see them as an optimal choice. For closer range work, with good shot placement, they can be great.

I intend on getting through posts in this forum regarding Hammers particularly. I've seen some examples already elsewhere and I even contacted Nathan Foster about them personally to get his view and we looked at a few examples and of kills and we're both concerned with them tumbling on impact and being unpredictable with their terminal performance and we discussed how some examples out there show evidence of spine shots, which can create an illusion of great performance, but spine shots unfortunately can't be counted on every time. So I'd absolutely love to see more examples. I don't want to make any conclusions without more evidence.

Like I've said, I'm not here to trash any bullet or bullet manufacturer. I just want to learn and share knowledge and stories and successes and see every hunter having nothing but the best experience out there.
 
Reading that some folks anneal bullets with candle flame (1400-2000 * F). This would most likely melt any plastic tips but would promote expansion. Bullet ogives being subject to work hardening upon forming. Don't suggest toasting loaded ammo.

Any info on that?
six out of 5 stars - like master of bullet studies - glad to see somebody else is sectioning bullets - I will frequently revisit this thread & post - any info as to annealing jackets?
 
Reading that some folks anneal bullets with candle flame (1400-2000 * F). This would most likely melt any plastic tips but would promote expansion. Bullet ogives being subject to work hardening upon forming. Don't suggest toasting loaded ammo.

Any info on that?
That's one reason I didn't see a good reason to continue. Back when I was shooting a lot more SSTs, it was a good way to soften those thick jackets to get them to expand better at lower impact velocities, but then I switched to AMAXs and wasn't having the issue or need to anneal. Now I typically use ELDMs or TMKs and I just haven't needed to anneal. If I need a lower impact velocity minimum, I use ALCO bullets. I'm honestly not a big fan of shooting animals though if I dip below transonic (1340fps) anyways because things tend to get more unpredictable regarding external ballistics. Getting your wind hold down just right is also especially detrimental dipping below like 1400fps.

But anyway, yes, you have to be really careful not to melt the tips, but tips made of acetyl resin like ELDMs and TMKs can can take a bit more heat and are more forgiving if you get close with the flame. Slow annealing by laying bullets out in the sun does work too by the way.
 
Hey Petey thanks for your service and the work on the bullets. Helps us pick the right tool for the right job!
Once again very well said and 100% correct IMO and this is where the Hammers really shine and I'll let Fordy explain, This is the same civil discussion I was referencing in your other post so we'll just have it here if that's ok with you
Great info here too me everything said reinforces the reason I shoot Hammer bullets now if I was shooting 1500 yds I might make some adjustments I've gone too fast twist rate and the highest vel I can get out of a given cartridge shoot for the shoulder and expect a dead deer with a exit for a blood trail if needed . I also like the added benefits of the Hammer bullets less copper fouling less than Barnes the easiest load development I've ever done for accuracy and unbelievable vel gain over conventional bullets I'm not sure if the OP has tried Hammer bullets but hope he does and gives us a report of his experience especially being he understands the limitations of what this bullet was designed for at this point in my hunting requirements the Hammer fills the bill
 
Great info here too me everything said reinforces the reason I shoot Hammer bullets now if I was shooting 1500 yds I might make some adjustments I've gone too fast twist rate and the highest vel I can get out of a given cartridge shoot for the shoulder and expect a dead deer with a exit for a blood trail if needed . I also like the added benefits of the Hammer bullets less copper fouling less than Barnes the easiest load development I've ever done for accuracy and unbelievable vel gain over conventional bullets I'm not sure if the OP has tried Hammer bullets but hope he does and gives us a report of his experience especially being he understands the limitations of what this bullet was designed for at this point in my hunting requirements the Hammer fills the bill
If I ever get the time, I'd definitely be willing to try them. Doing shooting projects is very challenging for me nowadays due to my very busy schedule. I've got about 10 years to go before I can retire from my federal civil service job, and after that, I hope to spend most all of my time doing this kind of stuff.
 
If I ever get the time, I'd definitely be willing to try them. Doing shooting projects is very challenging for me nowadays due to my very busy schedule. I've got about 10 years to go before I can retire from my federal civil service job, and after that, I hope to spend most all of my time doing this kind of stuff.
Sounds great I did 33 years civil service with the Houston Fire Dept retired and bought a West Tx Ranch where I spend as much time as family allows thank you for your service if I was too fly it would have too be the A 10 I love that Fire Power
 
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