Bullet construction

PETEY308
I am as well as everyone else are interested on you analysis of all these bullets and the performance. There are close to a 90 posts already on your information. My question to you is how did you have the ability and resources/tools/knowledge/time to conduct such a in-depth study like you did.
I am astonished at the detail and can't fathom doing something my self. I haven't read every post so you may have already explained, but could you give us some inside info on how you were able to do this study?
I Think that it is GREAT info for all of us hunters and shooters.
GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!
Thanks
Len & Jill
Semper Fi!!
I'm not really sure how to best answer this lol. This might be way more than you were wanting too, but like I said, I wasn't really sure how to best answer this. I've never been good at describing my credentials or background lol. So anyway, here goes:

Hunting is, and has been, a big part of my life. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and was blessed having land to hunt year round. We could only use shotguns and slugs during the firearms portion of deer season there at the time. I never enjoyed that and hated how much devastation the slugs would leave. I think maybe that was what first started the spark of looking for ways to alter the terminal performance and amount of wounding on animals. I began experimenting with different slugs and different gauges. I also did a lot of coyote and varmint hunting with rifles. So as I got older, I got to be a better shooter and better hunter, and I started stretching out my shots. Long range hunting has been the only natural continuance of it all and something that's kept my passion fully alive. It's made me dive even deeper into all the intricacies of it and do a TON of self educating, actual formal educating on the subject, endless hours of research, testing and experimenting, dissecting bullets (as well as animals), etc, etc. I've also had some amazing mentors to share their wisdom with me and fill in a lot of gaps that I have in my own experience; guys that have personally harvested 9k+ head of game, for example. Getting samples of that experience straight from the source and being able to exchange experiences, ideas, and theories is an unreal and amazing blessing. Also, I live in Missouri now and fortunately can use rifles to hunt deer here, so no more shotguns for this guy lol.

Doing write-ups like this is just a culmination of all the years of tinkering and playing around with this stuff. I've been doing it for years now and I just try to keep good notes lol. I think me being a bit of a nerd helps a lot too lol. This stuff seems to have always clicked in my head and makes sense to me as I go. Having a passion for it definitely helps too lol.

I'm also pretty experienced in reloading as well. I've been reloading for 20+ years now and am always involved in the cutting edge methods and processes, trying to find better and more efficient ways to achieve precision. I've tried about every method you can think of to develop loads, size brass, prep brass, etc. I've loaded quite a few different cartridges and load new ones all the time. I run a gunsmithing/ammosmithing side business, to include a precision brass prep service I just recently added to the repertoire. It's fun and rewarding loading up precision hunting rounds for customers, and I'm working towards making my own hunting bullets and hunting ammo to add to the market. That will be what I do full time after I retire from my current full time gig. I'd love to have the opportunities though to hunt more (wouldn't we all) and test even more bullets. It would be a dream job. When I look at all of what Nathan Foster has done, for example, that's what I would like to do or be doing myself.

I don't try to talk anyone out of something. I'll offer my advice if it's asked for, or if I feel I should, but I try to respect the customer's wishes and desires. That carries over in groups and forums like this. In the end, dead truly is dead and there are countless cartridges and bullets that are quite capable of the task. I'm only trying to help achieve the same ultimate goal, just the best way I know.

And if it matters, I've been in the Air Force for 17 years now as an A-10 crew chief. That's my day job. It's been great, but it sure keeps me busy and sends me all over the world and forces me to miss out on opportunities with this stuff. I was stationed in Europe and South Korea the first part of my career and that sure didn't help me keep up with this stuff lol. Having three kids now, heavily involved in sports, doesn't help either lol.

Does this help answer your questions? I'm not an official ballistician or anything, unfortunately, unless I'd refer to myself as one for my own business lol. I really appreciate your kind words, and everyone else's. I'm always reluctant to post stuff like this for a few reasons. You typically get mixed reviews and those that disagree and want to argue, and it really is a lot of work and takes a ton of time, even to just put all the words together in a write-up like this. Then, when you post it publicly like this, it's hard to guarantee you'll keep your name tied to it and it won't get copied and stolen. Since my ultimate goal though is to help out the hunting community if I can, I decided to post it anyways. I'm not trying to profit off of it.
 
Gday petey308
I'm not here to bash I'm here to learn & will put my actual observations up as a reference
On the following I've got no idea as I've tried to work out the way to a better all round killing pill ( the holy grail projectile) but these days I'm a 500 & in guy so I don't fit in here on LRH as my personal side can't do it anymore past this

I'll comment over on your other thread on the copper side as well as that's the one that interests me personally the most but seeing I was once a frangible junkie & used a lot with very impressive terminal results especially way out yonder 1 k plus

But we enter into that animal gets up @ 50 yrd & this happens
Actual specifics
60 yards Close to or @3100 impact
220 eldx
High shoulder shot that usual placement takes out spine & bangflop but @ this impact the resistance is to great for the pill to preform adequately & extremely shallow penertration results ( found part of jacket ( base ) sill in animal )
The animal drops on the spot
& around 20 to 30 seconds later gets up & takes off can't be found ( this one was a considerable time later yes I've had multiple do this & species & the higher the impact it shows up more also with my old favourite the amax in various 30 cal weights it also was a occurrence & others )
Now percentage wise this is a low percentage but I won't accept failure & more importantly the ethics of this just sucks
It was Fully alert when finally found & drilled in neck crease on slight quarter towards , look closely you can see 2nd shot

This is not to bag out the frangible it's showing they have flaws when we don't address the situation required
Yes I can shoot behind the shoulder but then we also enter the angle world

& heres my question ( sorry for the long way round for a shortcut )
With all of the above what pill do we use ?

Now my world today also please & can I have velocities you'd run them @ & the maximum impact velocity you would be comfortable to run them @ where the best velocity impact to bangflop ratio occurs

( I probably won't be back on here a bit as my work presently is upto 18 hrs a day plus travel this is not a cop out as my friends on lrh will vouch I'm seriously busy @ present)
Cheers
 

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What slugs were you using tht you would get more meat damage than an eld-m or tmk? I grew up in Illinois, so same deal on firearm hunting. Every single deer we ever killed was the same result.... Passthrough on broadside crease shot, a good clean 2" exit with little meat damage.
 
What slugs were you using tht you would get more meat damage than an eld-m or tmk? I grew up in Illinois, so same deal on firearm hunting. Every single deer we ever killed was the same result.... Passthrough on broadside crease shot, a good clean 2" exit with little meat damage.
Back then it was mostly just Foster slugs. I did reload shotgun though and reducing the loads sometimes helped.

And yes, we did learn quick tucking shots just behind the shoulder was best, but shooting a shotgun was never quite like shooting a rifle. Shots would sometimes not hit in the most desired spot lol.

I've definitely seen some shots on deer here in Missouri though from rifles that definitely reminded me of my slug days. One of the worst I remember was a 270 with SST Superformance ammo. Hit the buck at around 40 yards slightly quartering-to right in the shoulder and that particular bullet type impacting that fast just blew out the shoulder, sending him running for about 200 yards through thick CRP pasture. He wasn't hard to track at least lol. Results like that are just one of multiple reasons I've done all the testing and am research I have to figure out how to avoid results like that.
 
Gday petey308
I'm not here to bash I'm here to learn & will put my actual observations up as a reference
On the following I've got no idea as I've tried to work out the way to a better all round killing pill ( the holy grail projectile) but these days I'm a 500 & in guy so I don't fit in here on LRH as my personal side can't do it anymore past this

I'll comment over on your other thread on the copper side as well as that's the one that interests me personally the most but seeing I was once a frangible junkie & used a lot with very impressive terminal results especially way out yonder 1 k plus

But we enter into that animal gets up @ 50 yrd & this happens
Actual specifics
60 yards Close to or @3100 impact
220 eldx
High shoulder shot that usual placement takes out spine & bangflop but @ this impact the resistance is to great for the pill to preform adequately & extremely shallow penertration results ( found part of jacket ( base ) sill in animal )
The animal drops on the spot
& around 20 to 30 seconds later gets up & takes off can't be found ( this one was a considerable time later yes I've had multiple do this & species & the higher the impact it shows up more also with my old favourite the amax in various 30 cal weights it also was a occurrence & others )
Now percentage wise this is a low percentage but I won't accept failure & more importantly the ethics of this just sucks
It was Fully alert when finally found & drilled in neck crease on slight quarter towards , look closely you can see 2nd shot

This is not to bag out the frangible it's showing they have flaws when we don't address the situation required
Yes I can shoot behind the shoulder but then we also enter the angle world

& heres my question ( sorry for the long way round for a shortcut )
With all of the above what pill do we use ?

Now my world today also please & can I have velocities you'd run them @ & the maximum impact velocity you would be comfortable to run them @ where the best velocity impact to bangflop ratio occurs

( I probably won't be back on here a bit as my work presently is upto 18 hrs a day plus travel this is not a cop out as my friends on lrh will vouch I'm seriously busy @ present)
Cheers
Hello sir,

Let me first say that I mean no offense but found your comment hard to follow and fully decipher, so I may not answer everything properly as a result.

From what I gather though, you were using a 220gr ELDX at a close range abd impact velocity was still very high, especially for the shot placement used. While the ELDX is a tougher constructed cup and core bullet, it's still not fully bonded and with such a particular shot, will still suffer from over-expansion and shallow penetration.

In your scenario, based on my experience and studies, a shot placement behind the shoulder, or in front if quartering-to, would have been better to lower how much resistance the bullet encountered upon impact. With most cup and core bullets, especially those not chemically/electrically bonded, I tend to tell guys to avoid impacting above 2600fps if at all possible, but at least avoid shoulder shots, and when you start getting below 2400fps, start actually aiming for shoulders. Obviously this depends greatly on the particular bullet, its construction/composition, and how much sectional density it has. The softer and more frangible a bullet is, the more sectional density you want. The tougher the bullet, the less you want, but ideally no less than .260 for most deer and larger game. The 220gr ELDX has an SD of .331 which is quite high for that type of bullet, especially for a 3100fps Impact on a shoulder.

Does this help? I could maybe elaborate further if needed or if I missed something. I also think I may have mentioned in other comments similar things regarding my rules of thumb on minimum and maximum impact velocities with the different bullet types.
 
Back then it was mostly just Foster slugs. I did reload shotgun though and reducing the loads sometimes helped.

And yes, we did learn quick tucking shots just behind the shoulder was best, but shooting a shotgun was never quite like shooting a rifle. Shots would sometimes not hit in the most desired spot lol.

I've definitely seen some shots on deer here in Missouri though from rifles that definitely reminded me of my slug days. One of the worst I remember was a 270 with SST Superformance ammo. Hit the buck at around 40 yards slightly quartering-to right in the shoulder and that particular bullet type impacting that fast just blew out the shoulder, sending him running for about 200 yards through thick CRP pasture. He wasn't hard to track at least lol. Results like that are just one of multiple reasons I've done all the testing and am research I have to figure out how to avoid results like that.

Got it. I had always used light field hybrid exp sabots. Super soft lead and they were an absolutely accurate hammer. Love em! I always had much better hits than my uncles that were slinging brenneke slugs from their smoothbores.
 
Got it. I had always used light field hybrid exp sabots. Super soft lead and they were an absolutely accurate hammer. Love em! I always had much better hits than my uncles that were slinging brenneke slugs from their smoothbores.
Yeah, if I had to do it over, sabots would be my choice.
 
No sir, I do not. They're not one though I've personally viewed as an ideal hunting bullet though. I know people have used them and had success, but they're a particular design that limits their reliability of expansion without taking extra steps such at trimming the meplats to make them wider or drilling them to make them wider and create a larger cavity. Obviously all that can be done. I have done it, particularly with Sierra MatchKings, but with so many other options out there now that don't require the extra steps, my method now is to simply use a better designed bullet. Hopefully that doesn't come across as biased on way or another. It definitely has my opinion attached.

I do like some of the things Lapua does with their bullets though. The D46's, for example, are great, although being a FMJ, not a great hunting bullet either. I'm a fan of rebated boat tails though. I like the lockbase bullets they have as well. I'd love to see a tipped bullet from them. That would make for a great hunting option I'm sure.
I tried the 155 scenar on coyotes, useless hunting bullet
 
I'm not really sure how to best answer this lol. This might be way more than you were wanting too, but like I said, I wasn't really sure how to best answer this. I've never been good at describing my credentials or background lol. So anyway, here goes:

Hunting is, and has been, a big part of my life. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and was blessed having land to hunt year round. We could only use shotguns and slugs during the firearms portion of deer season there at the time. I never enjoyed that and hated how much devastation the slugs would leave. I think maybe that was what first started the spark of looking for ways to alter the terminal performance and amount of wounding on animals. I began experimenting with different slugs and different gauges. I also did a lot of coyote and varmint hunting with rifles. So as I got older, I got to be a better shooter and better hunter, and I started stretching out my shots. Long range hunting has been the only natural continuance of it all and something that's kept my passion fully alive. It's made me dive even deeper into all the intricacies of it and do a TON of self educating, actual formal educating on the subject, endless hours of research, testing and experimenting, dissecting bullets (as well as animals), etc, etc. I've also had some amazing mentors to share their wisdom with me and fill in a lot of gaps that I have in my own experience; guys that have personally harvested 9k+ head of game, for example. Getting samples of that experience straight from the source and being able to exchange experiences, ideas, and theories is an unreal and amazing blessing. Also, I live in Missouri now and fortunately can use rifles to hunt deer here, so no more shotguns for this guy lol.

Doing write-ups like this is just a culmination of all the years of tinkering and playing around with this stuff. I've been doing it for years now and I just try to keep good notes lol. I think me being a bit of a nerd helps a lot too lol. This stuff seems to have always clicked in my head and makes sense to me as I go. Having a passion for it definitely helps too lol.

I'm also pretty experienced in reloading as well. I've been reloading for 20+ years now and am always involved in the cutting edge methods and processes, trying to find better and more efficient ways to achieve precision. I've tried about every method you can think of to develop loads, size brass, prep brass, etc. I've loaded quite a few different cartridges and load new ones all the time. I run a gunsmithing/ammosmithing side business, to include a precision brass prep service I just recently added to the repertoire. It's fun and rewarding loading up precision hunting rounds for customers, and I'm working towards making my own hunting bullets and hunting ammo to add to the market. That will be what I do full time after I retire from my current full time gig. I'd love to have the opportunities though to hunt more (wouldn't we all) and test even more bullets. It would be a dream job. When I look at all of what Nathan Foster has done, for example, that's what I would like to do or be doing myself.

I don't try to talk anyone out of something. I'll offer my advice if it's asked for, or if I feel I should, but I try to respect the customer's wishes and desires. That carries over in groups and forums like this. In the end, dead truly is dead and there are countless cartridges and bullets that are quite capable of the task. I'm only trying to help achieve the same ultimate goal, just the best way I know.

And if it matters, I've been in the Air Force for 17 years now as an A-10 crew chief. That's my day job. It's been great, but it sure keeps me busy and sends me all over the world and forces me to miss out on opportunities with this stuff. I was stationed in Europe and South Korea the first part of my career and that sure didn't help me keep up with this stuff lol. Having three kids now, heavily involved in sports, doesn't help either lol.

Does this help answer your questions? I'm not an official ballistician or anything, unfortunately, unless I'd refer to myself as one for my own business lol. I really appreciate your kind words, and everyone else's. I'm always reluctant to post stuff like this for a few reasons. You typically get mixed reviews and those that disagree and want to argue, and it really is a lot of work and takes a ton of time, even to just put all the words together in a write-up like this. Then, when you post it publicly like this, it's hard to guarantee you'll keep your name tied to it and it won't get copied and stolen. Since my ultimate goal though is to help out the hunting community if I can, I decided to post it anyways. I'm not trying to profit off of it.
Appreciate all the information very informative and thorough you definitely will be helpful on this forum I've been around thi game for60 plus years but never too old too learn by the way the A 10 is my favorite
 
Would you be able to categorize these bullets into hard/brittle vs soft malleable? (Maybe you already did and I missed over it) I hate biting into bullet fragments in my deer burger! I use AMAX on things I don't eat, or just pull the backstrap out of (TX hogs) I would have to say I prefer a pass through with quarter to 1/2 dollar size exits.
I did just make a new post and it categorizes bullets like this.
 
I made a separate post just on the differences between the Berger hybrid and VLD, here:


I know Bergers are popular and figured some might find it useful.
 
Hello sir,

Let me first say that I mean no offense but found your comment hard to follow and fully decipher, so I may not answer everything properly as a result.

From what I gather though, you were using a 220gr ELDX at a close range abd impact velocity was still very high, especially for the shot placement used. While the ELDX is a tougher constructed cup and core bullet, it's still not fully bonded and with such a particular shot, will still suffer from over-expansion and shallow penetration.

In your scenario, based on my experience and studies, a shot placement behind the shoulder, or in front if quartering-to, would have been better to lower how much resistance the bullet encountered upon impact. With most cup and core bullets, especially those not chemically/electrically bonded, I tend to tell guys to avoid impacting above 2600fps if at all possible, but at least avoid shoulder shots, and when you start getting below 2400fps, start actually aiming for shoulders. Obviously this depends greatly on the particular bullet, its construction/composition, and how much sectional density it has. The softer and more frangible a bullet is, the more sectional density you want. The tougher the bullet, the less you want, but ideally no less than .260 for most deer and larger game. The 220gr ELDX has an SD of .331 which is quite high for that type of bullet, especially for a 3100fps Impact on a shoulder.

Does this help? I could maybe elaborate further if needed or if I missed something. I also think I may have mentioned in other comments similar things regarding my rules of thumb on minimum and maximum impact velocities with the different bullet types.
Thanks petey308
Sorry some is probably Aussie slang & terminology other parts me

So are you saying we need to keep that type of projectile @ or below 2600 impact ?
So if that's the case how do you reach out to 1500 yards & still be covered to that 50 yrd shot

& also that 50 yrd shot has a lot more% wise of being a angled shot

I do note that better placed shots are part of the answer but a lot of times with either human error , animal movements or the case of obstacles in the way the perfect shot is not possible & a less than ideal shot is taken hence the insurance ea hunter builds into their combo
 
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