You couldn't see that mark on the Brass? Seriously just asking
For those who NEVER clean their bore, or almost never
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oldfortyfiveauto
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Reality is even low cost rifles are shooting better than high dollar ones 25 years ago. Better barrels and better practices are why. Bore scoping take out some of the variables.
Yes I could when I switched to H4350 I got over 2900 but couldn't see what was causing it to come up with a fix fore it I also had a gun smith setting beside me along with several other shooters with lots of experience and came to the conclusion that we needed to look at it with a bore scope
milo-2
Well-Known Member
I am not about to try talk you into one, as I am pretty handy with a cleaning rod myself, or so I think.
I bought a Hawkeye 7 yrs ago, and just picked up a teslong, handy little tool for 50 bucks. If I have my way, I will never be w/o a borescope.
They are a tool, learn to use it, go through the panic and speculation phase, settle down and let it be an asset in the arsenal. I was able to identify a rough spot in a Proof carbon, 6 Dasher barrel and JB it out. That barrel proved to be the most accurate barrel I have ever seen inside of 800 yards.
So again, they have their place, it may not be on your bench though.
keithcandler
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I don't think you are teachable. Your mind is closed and your learning curve has plateaued.
I started shooting Benchrest in '68, and I am still learning. If you can't learn from Alex Wheeler who is a accomplished 1000 yard shooter, big game hunter, and Master Rifle builder, then there is no hope for your learning curve.
After all, it is a hobby, do it your way.
I'm not knocking you Bud I was just wondering, Like I said I can see where they would be useful, case in point
You are incorrect I am teachable and my mind is not closed and my learning curve is still in full swing and I can learn from anyone and while BluePrairiedog didn't say it this is the third time in two days that I've read on this site "your ignorant if you don't have a bore scope", "your not serious about accuracy if you don't have a bore scope", Who in the world would do anything without a bore scope"I'll say it again I can see where it would be very useful but it is not a necessity as its made out to be, once again this whole tread is sidetracked into bore scopes when its supposed to be about accuracy out of a clean or dirty barrel And Alex Wheeler is awesome and I do follow him with my plateaued learning curve I really admire Jack O'Conner and he never mentioned a carbon ring that I have read about
I actually just wanted to hear some wild success stories and/or some utterly hopeless failures!
I'm starting to wonder how many people around here have actually taken their sub moa barrel all the way to being "shot out" at a normal barrel life expectancy without ever putting a patch through the bore, with the exception of maybe early in the gun's life. If there are some, I'd like to know if there's any common link between people who do it successfully and those who end up with an issue.
I would think in order to do it without issue, you'd need a relatively smooth bore and a clean burning powder. Seeing the post from someone early on about a test (I think Norma) that was done where the barrel wasn't cleaned and the bore diameter shrunk by 0.003 or something makes me wonder what cartridge and what powder. Then there's the guy who's son in law had a 243 that he didn't clean well, and ended up with overpressure, on what I think he said was a factory load, only due to there being carbon buildup in the chamber neck. That could have been avoided by chamber cleaning... Which should absolutely be done at least every once in awhile, in my opinion.
I do want a bore scope, just because I'm a curious person.
I'm starting to wonder how many people around here have actually taken their sub moa barrel all the way to being "shot out" at a normal barrel life expectancy without ever putting a patch through the bore, with the exception of maybe early in the gun's life. If there are some, I'd like to know if there's any common link between people who do it successfully and those who end up with an issue.
I would think in order to do it without issue, you'd need a relatively smooth bore and a clean burning powder. Seeing the post from someone early on about a test (I think Norma) that was done where the barrel wasn't cleaned and the bore diameter shrunk by 0.003 or something makes me wonder what cartridge and what powder. Then there's the guy who's son in law had a 243 that he didn't clean well, and ended up with overpressure, on what I think he said was a factory load, only due to there being carbon buildup in the chamber neck. That could have been avoided by chamber cleaning... Which should absolutely be done at least every once in awhile, in my opinion.
I do want a bore scope, just because I'm a curious person.
I hope that my no cleaning test provided some useful info and I sincerely apologize about your thread getting sidetracked, I as had stated earlier I had done two tests on the 308 at around 500 rounds each and I lost count on the 270 but I would guess upwards of 700 rounds without cleaning and i showed no accuracy decline or signs over pressure. I will say that bore diameter shrinking, or gumming up I would agree with as I had to start with a 25 cal jag on the 270, I couldn't get the 27 cal through it for the first 25 patches or so
No worries!! Alll the other stuff is welcome too, as I'll never turn down getting free information haha.
That's surprising on the 270! Did you run into pressure or velocity issues or just felt like it needed to be cleaned?
keithcandler
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Why do so many people talk of getting a bore scope:
a. when you shoot a rifle until it looses accuracy, the first thing you learn is just how
difficult the barrel is to clean, and the effort that it does take is not worth letting
the bore get fouled to the extremes
b. along these same line above, you learn just how ineffective your cleaning methods
for years has been
c. you learn that cleanliness is a very good thing when it comes to accuracy
d. you learn just how many chemicals are not much better than using Kool Aid or
Kerosine in your barrel to clean with, good bronze brushes that are used no more
than 100 strokes do the hard work.
e. you learn immediately that while some guys speak with authority about their
cleaning method, chemicals, etc, this has no bearing on your application as they
never reference the caliber, number of grains being fired, cleaning frequency that
their method works. Cleaning a 223 shooting 24g of powder every 25 shots is a
lot different than shooting a 7 Rem mag where you are firing 25 rounds of 71g of
Retumbo every 25 rounds. Then you try and clean your 308 that has been fired
200 rounds of R#15, and your head wants to explode because you do not have
the know how or cleaning knowledge to get the super cooked on carbon out of
your barrel.
Accuracy is a relative thing, different for everyone. For me, 1 MOA means I need a new barrel, and 1/2 MOA is acceptable on the larger end, striving for 1/4-3/8 MOA.
I do make my own laps and lapping compounds out of various grades of AL Oxide and have two grades of Silicone Carbide that are used in severely abused barrels.
So, cleaning methods and frequency is relative to your accuracy goals. Each barrel will have a frequency that it likes to get cleaned for best accuracy. Custom barrels like Krieger, Brux, Bartline, Lilja, Hart, etc rarely ever take more than a Couple of shots to foul the bore, and pushing a couple of patches of lighter fluid through the bore prior to leaving home goes a long way in helping a clean cold bore shot go exactly where it should.
As Alex Wheeler said, a serious accuracy shooter should be constantly measuring his OAL to the lands where he has established a particular barrel likes a certain Jump or touch the lands for best accuracy. Two things go hand in hand, clean barrel and Cartridge Over all Length to the Lands, and I measure my COAL every 20 rounds.
a. when you shoot a rifle until it looses accuracy, the first thing you learn is just how
difficult the barrel is to clean, and the effort that it does take is not worth letting
the bore get fouled to the extremes
b. along these same line above, you learn just how ineffective your cleaning methods
for years has been
c. you learn that cleanliness is a very good thing when it comes to accuracy
d. you learn just how many chemicals are not much better than using Kool Aid or
Kerosine in your barrel to clean with, good bronze brushes that are used no more
than 100 strokes do the hard work.
e. you learn immediately that while some guys speak with authority about their
cleaning method, chemicals, etc, this has no bearing on your application as they
never reference the caliber, number of grains being fired, cleaning frequency that
their method works. Cleaning a 223 shooting 24g of powder every 25 shots is a
lot different than shooting a 7 Rem mag where you are firing 25 rounds of 71g of
Retumbo every 25 rounds. Then you try and clean your 308 that has been fired
200 rounds of R#15, and your head wants to explode because you do not have
the know how or cleaning knowledge to get the super cooked on carbon out of
your barrel.
Accuracy is a relative thing, different for everyone. For me, 1 MOA means I need a new barrel, and 1/2 MOA is acceptable on the larger end, striving for 1/4-3/8 MOA.
I do make my own laps and lapping compounds out of various grades of AL Oxide and have two grades of Silicone Carbide that are used in severely abused barrels.
So, cleaning methods and frequency is relative to your accuracy goals. Each barrel will have a frequency that it likes to get cleaned for best accuracy. Custom barrels like Krieger, Brux, Bartline, Lilja, Hart, etc rarely ever take more than a Couple of shots to foul the bore, and pushing a couple of patches of lighter fluid through the bore prior to leaving home goes a long way in helping a clean cold bore shot go exactly where it should.
As Alex Wheeler said, a serious accuracy shooter should be constantly measuring his OAL to the lands where he has established a particular barrel likes a certain Jump or touch the lands for best accuracy. Two things go hand in hand, clean barrel and Cartridge Over all Length to the Lands, and I measure my COAL every 20 rounds.
I just got feeling guilty and it was time for me to see the results No pressure or velocity issues at all, it just had been years since i cleaned it, I started on a whim just to see if accuracy would degrade and it did not but as i said it was a mess to clean so I will go back to cleaning every session, What it boils down ti IMO is do what works for you as there is no right or wrong, just opinions and personal preference
cohunt
Well-Known Member
off shoot question-- I recently got a teslong and I noticed a trend in a few riles--- the patches come out clean when using copper cleaner (foaming) but when I use the teslong to view the inside I see light copper build up in the center 2-4" of the barrel yet the chamber end and muzzle ends are clean an free of copper -- what is going on here? any ideas? its noit in all my barrels but it is in several and it makes me wonder what trend I am seeing.
That's all well and good but once again the thread title is
For those who NEVER clean their bore, or almost never
And now your talking about your accuracy standards, lapping barrels and compound and COAL and you obviously clean fanatically ( Which is fine ) but you have contributed nothing to the question the OP asked but your opinion and Alex Wheeler thinks and once again here we are completely off of the topic, maybe its not my learning curve that has plateaued, All apologizes as I mean no disrespect to anyone. That will be my last word on the subject
