Shorter barreled rifles and un-burnt powder

[Brozonelayer]

I've seen a few posts where someone asks about a shorter barreled rifle, say 18"-22", and others bring up not burning up all the powder. I'd like to better understand the reason to avoid un-burnt powder. Is it because its wasteful (of powder), makes it louder, or more fire/blast out of the muzzle, or something else? Of course the shorter barrel will lose velocity over the typical 24"-28".

I ask because I'm interested in building a 16", maybe 18", hunting rifle. I've been thinking about using the 6.5 PRC since I've read about a few shorter 6.5 CM builds. I own a 24" 6.5 PRC now and like it enough. Used it an an Aoudad and it worked well. The 16" rifle would be used mostly on coues deer, mule deer, maybe antelope but not elk (I'm hoping to get elk done with a bow next). Max shot would be out to 600yds but more likely 300-400yds.
I've used a 18" .243 on an antelope, a 26" 7 RM on a bull elk and I have a 22" 300 WM with a Sandman-L suppressor on it I shoot steel out to 1,000yds with. I've had a few other rifles as well. I've handloaded in the past for rifle and pistol but want to stick with factory ammo on this one.

I understand the velocity may go from 2900 to 2500 from 26" to 16". I understand I'm effectively turning a "magnum" into a non-magnum. I understand there may/will be un-burnt powder. What I don't understand is what is wrong with that? I don't expect anyone to be gentle, I've got thick enough skin but please provide what you consider to be useful information. I'm open to have my mind changed but not if your answer is "just shoot a 24" barrel". If the suggestion is to use a different round I'd understand that. I expect some would say 7mm-08 or .308 but is that just so I don't have un-burnt powder? If someone shoots a 6.5 CM out of an 18" barrel and then also used the 6.5 PRC in the same rifle setup (other than chambering), wouldn't you still be achieving higher velocity out of the same barrel length? I'm sure I'm missing something here since many, most, if not all of you are more knowledgeable than I, so I'm thankful for any help or guidance.

My plan is to buy a trued Remington action from Northland Shooters Supply along with the remage barrel nut and recoil lug. I would then buy a 16" remage carbon fiber barrel. I was considering the XLR magnesium folder stock but may go with a Manners or McMillan.

Any insight is appreciated!

 

[jpd676]

There is nothing wrong, per say, with a short barrel. Powders are designed with a specific burn rate for launching certain weighted bullets and need a certain lenghth tube to do that. If you use a slow powder in a short barrel you get less velocity and a large muzzle blast. Depending on the caliber, the blast can be dangerous for your suppressor (overpressure) if you use one. If you are being realistic with what you want, you can probably get that out of your build. You may have a hard time selling a 16" PRC if you ever want to. By the way, I think buying a trued action from NSS and doing a build is a good way to go.
I wanted a 20" POF ar-10 but got a screaming deal on a 16". It has been an amazing shooter and I'm glad I have it. Shorter barrels can be stiff and give good accuracy.

 

[sable tireur]

My plan is to buy a trued Remington action from Northland Shooters Supply along with the remage barrel nut and recoil lug.

Do yourself a favor and skip this idea. Either buy an accurized action from another source or buy an action and have it accurized (the full boat) by a gunsmith. This will cost you few dollars more but you'll get what you need right from the start.

I ask because I'm interested in building a 16", maybe 18", hunting rifle. I've been thinking about using the 6.5 PRC since I've read about a few shorter 6.5 CM builds. I own a 24" 6.5 PRC now and like it enough. Used it an an Aoudad and it worked well. The 16" rifle would be used mostly on coues deer, mule deer, maybe antelope but not elk (I'm hoping to get elk done with a bow next). Max shot would be out to 600yds but more likely 300-400yds.
I've used a 18" .243 on an antelope, a 26" 7 RM on a bull elk and I have a 22" 300 WM with a Sandman-L suppressor on it I shoot steel out to 1,000yds with. I've had a few other rifles as well. I've handloaded in the past for rifle and pistol but want to stick with factory ammo on this one.

Some of the factory ammunition is surprising good but your results might vary due to the rifle. The problem is that we don't know what powder the manufacturer is using because it's a blend to make a specific velocity and to be cheap. The less the use, the more money they make. They are not interested in efficiency. So the basics of the 6.5 PRC ammunition is that the Hornady uses the 143 ELD-X at 2960 fps. Subtract 10" at approximately 30 fps/inch which gets you to 2650-2660 fps. Plug that into a calculator and you get 1000 ft/lbs. at 600 yards. But we can't answer the question about unburned powder.

I ran a 6.5 PRC with a 20-21" supressed barrel but shooting a 130 gr. VLD. The load I settle on technically all burned in the barrel but it was close. Put old white sheets out in front of your bench and shoot your loads. Grab the corners and move anything on the sheets into the center and look at what you got. Slightly faster and hotter burning powder will do a better job of getting consumed in a shorter barrel.

It might get a little expensive shooting commercial loads but once you find what you need it should be smooth sailing.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Not a 6.5 PRC but may provide some insight. I think you would be getting Grendel performance. My 20" 308 Win doesn't lose velocity too bad, but it definitely shoots faster with the lighter pills. Some cartridges are more forgiving than others. I don't know anything about the 6.5s.

300 Winchester Magnum: How Does Barrel Length Change Velocity- A 16″ 300 Win Mag?

Introduced by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1963, the 300 Winchester Magnum (300 Win Mag) is based on the 375 H&H case shortened to fit a standard length action and necked down to 30…

rifleshooter.com

My results with 20" 308 win.
Berger 215 2439 FPS
Berger 200.20x 2399 FPS
178 ELDX 2599 FPS
180 Game King 2487 FPS

 

[J E Custom]

Barrel length effects efficiency based on volume and burn rates. To much powder with a slow burn rate = inefficiency. A shorter barrel is limited by the volume of the cartridge and the bullet weight.

Some cartridges excel with short barrel as long as the right combination of cartridge, case capacity and bullet weight is achieved. Longer barrels can consume more powder and gain velocity as long as the right combination is used. No mater what the barrel length is used, total performance and efficiency can only be achieved by selecting the best burn rate for the cartridge and barrel length.

Almost any cartridge will benefit from a longer barrel, but sometimes the improvement is not worth the extra powder that is un burned and causes early barrel erosion.

This is the reason that there are optimum burn rate powders for different cartridges and barrel length. In other words, barrel length is beneficial in some cases and detrimental in other cases.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

SBRs work better with smaller cartridges. The 308 family stoked with powders normally considered too fast may surprise you.

This is a good reference:https://rifleshooter.com/2017/01/short-barrel-16-5-inch-winchester-load-development/

Although he stuck with "normal" powders and heavier bullets, I believe a 130 TSX over 4198 would do better. 4198 gives me the highest velocity with the the 130 TSX in my 300 Savage, so I assume more of it is burning while still not too "hot"

 

[Kimber7man]

IMO the only reason to go short barrel is because you are shooting it suppressed. (Not counting AR's). Otherwise I'm over 22" on all rifles.

 

[Barrelnut]

Do yourself a favor and skip this idea. Either buy an accurized action from another source or buy an action and have it accurized (the full boat) by a gunsmith. This will cost you few dollars more but you'll get what you need right from the start.

OP is shooting 600 yards and in. Have seen some fine shooters built with parts from Northland Shooter Supply. NSS has a BIG following of satisfied customers for a reason. Have never purchased ANYTHING from NSS that was not what I needed right from the start.
I understand you make some very fine rifles, but sometimes budget builds can perform very well.

 

[CVCOBRA1]

Muzzle blast with magnum powders will be the biggest disadvantage of the short barrels, along with loss of velocity. I have two Sako Mannlicher carbines with 19.5" barrels. A 7Rem Mag and a 308. Simply drop down a bullet weight in size and load with faster burning powders. You won't have a fire breathing dragon and still have decent velocity.

 

[sable tireur]

I understand you make some very fine rifles, but sometimes budget builds can perform very well.

It has nothing to do with budget builds. What he sells is only a very small part of what should be done to Remington receivers. So rather than mislead a potential buyer, I suggested using a source who covers all the points of accurizing rather than just a couple. I believe in educated buyers. I am aware of the devoted masses who support NSS, that's great but I don't and that just my opinion. He doesn't need my business, he's doing fine on his own.

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

OP is shooting 600 yards and in. Have seen some fine shooters built with parts from Northland Shooter Supply. NSS has a BIG following of satisfied customers for a reason. Have never purchased ANYTHING from NSS that was not what I needed right from the start.
I understand you make some very fine rifles, but sometimes budget builds can perform very well.

Agree 100% well said.

I am aware of the devoted masses who support NSS, that's great but I don't and that just my opinion. He doesn't need my business, he's doing fine on his own.

He absolutely is doing well and provides a valuable service, I have two NSS builds that shoot very well. The 260 I have with a 20" barrel shoots in the two's, I guess someone could argue that they would have built it more accurate then that but I would say maybe maybe not

 

[Coldfinger]

I've seen a few posts where someone asks about a shorter barreled rifle, say 18"-22", and others bring up not burning up all the powder. I'd like to better understand the reason to avoid un-burnt powder. Is it because its wasteful (of powder), makes it louder, or more fire/blast out of the muzzle, or something else? Of course the shorter barrel will lose velocity over the typical 24"-28".

I ask because I'm interested in building a 16", maybe 18", hunting rifle. I've been thinking about using the 6.5 PRC since I've read about a few shorter 6.5 CM builds. I own a 24" 6.5 PRC now and like it enough. Used it an an Aoudad and it worked well. The 16" rifle would be used mostly on coues deer, mule deer, maybe antelope but not elk (I'm hoping to get elk done with a bow next). Max shot would be out to 600yds but more likely 300-400yds.
I've used a 18" .243 on an antelope, a 26" 7 RM on a bull elk and I have a 22" 300 WM with a Sandman-L suppressor on it I shoot steel out to 1,000yds with. I've had a few other rifles as well. I've handloaded in the past for rifle and pistol but want to stick with factory ammo on this one.

I understand the velocity may go from 2900 to 2500 from 26" to 16". I understand I'm effectively turning a "magnum" into a non-magnum. I understand there may/will be un-burnt powder. What I don't understand is what is wrong with that? I don't expect anyone to be gentle, I've got thick enough skin but please provide what you consider to be useful information. I'm open to have my mind changed but not if your answer is "just shoot a 24" barrel". If the suggestion is to use a different round I'd understand that. I expect some would say 7mm-08 or .308 but is that just so I don't have un-burnt powder? If someone shoots a 6.5 CM out of an 18" barrel and then also used the 6.5 PRC in the same rifle setup (other than chambering), wouldn't you still be achieving higher velocity out of the same barrel length? I'm sure I'm missing something here since many, most, if not all of you are more knowledgeable than I, so I'm thankful for any help or guidance.

My plan is to buy a trued Remington action from Northland Shooters Supply along with the remage barrel nut and recoil lug. I would then buy a 16" remage carbon fiber barrel. I was considering the XLR magnesium folder stock but may go with a Manners or McMillan.

Any insight is appreciated!

 

[Coldfinger]

I'd do whatever you want and not worry what others think. Powder waste yea to some extent. I've shot plenty of deer with rifle cartridges out of handguns, they never seemed to care. Seemed like ballistic tip bullets performed better with the lack of speed.
If you go with a folding stock I just want to let you know that cerakoting the latch doesn't work well. I had to file the dog and catch of latch to remove cerakote because it was too slippery and would unlatch under sling pressure. Easy fix but just a heads up.

 

[Bravo 4]

Deleted, thought this was same thread as short barrel 300 RUM.