Why not lazzeroni rifles?

[RockyMtnMT]

Not to hijack this thread. I would really like to see Kirby start a thread on detonation. I think that I have had some dealing with this. I would like to know why.

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Thanks for the input Kirby. It sounds like your 300 AX Has slightly less capacity than the Imp version I described? And to make clear regarding RL33, it works much better when using heavy for cal bullets such as the 30 cal 230 Hybrid.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mark ,,,,,,,

hey pal ,,, I am buying it and selling it ,,,,,,

you are wrong, and my accomplishments and the performance of the Lazzeroni Warbird (and all of the other Lazzeroni calibers) is a matter of record ,,, not some dream that is pulled out of my backside ,,,,,,,

I initially thought you were an intelligent guy with good information to offer here ,,, "I" was the one that was wrong about you and I should have listened to advice of others way back about 10 posts ago ,,,,,,,,,

YOU need to find yourself a pair of calipers and measure the LaPua case at the base, you might also want to measure the 378 wby ,,,,,

AND out of the 50,000 or so rounds of the Lazz Warbird loaded ammo we sold last year, 56% of it was loaded with the 150gr Lazerhead bullet ,,,,,, 30% with the 168gr HPBT and the balance loaded with 180gr Swift a-frames ,,,,,,

so if you can find a way to beat on your self inflated chest any harder, realize that YOU are the one that is in the minority, ,,,,,,,

if YOU want to shoot a special 230g bullet in 30 caliber magnums, get after it, that's what our country is all about ,,,,,

but ANYTIME you want to travel down to Tucson with your hunting rifle, and shoot against me at 1,000 yards, we have a match the second Saturday of every month ,,,,,,, we can put down a wager as big as your pocketbook will allow ,,,,,

you can also line your self up against the current world record holder in the 1,000 yard light gun class, for smallest group aggregate, 3 groups ,,,,,

and by the way ,,, HE shoots the Lazzeroni 7.82 (.308) Patriot SHORT magnum ,,,,,,

I am old & fat ,,, HE is not ,,,,,,,,

John, I am not your "pal"

Being a sponser here, I think you would do much better to be a little more professional.

Once again, you have strayed from discussing to facts and figures into bluster, patronizing and personal attack. Your post has zero info in it pertinent to whether or not lighter bullets are more efficient and accurate than heavier bullets and whether or not your Warbird brass is the only brass in it's class to give that level of performance. The plain and simple truth is. it isn't.

Lapua brass is better than your Hornady made brass period. And the Imp Lapua is essentially the same capacity as the Warbird. That's a fact that Kirby has shown us in his comparison and a fact the case spec dimensions clearly show from a mathematical view.

More facts... heavier bullets are more ballistically efficient than light bullets, especially when it comes to hunting. You only need to punch the numbers into the calcs to prove this.

Thumping my chest? Really? Would you care to point out any statements I made that would be "thumping my chest" or "bragging"? Have you gone back and read your post? This is what I call bragging and chest thumping...

but ANYTIME you want to travel down to Tucson with your hunting rifle, and shoot against me at 1,000 yards, we have a match the second Saturday of every month ,,,,,,, we can put down a wager as big as your pocketbook will allow ,,,,,

you can also line your self up against the current world record holder in the 1,000 yard light gun class, for smallest group aggregate, 3 groups ,,,,,

and by the way ,,, HE shoots the Lazzeroni 7.82 (.308) Patriot SHORT magnum

I would like to go down to Arizona and shoot with you guys, but I wouldn't be betting anything more than dinner and beers and would be glad to buy. that said, I have other travel priorities if i do travel. However, I would like to extend the same invitation to you and maybe we can stretch it out to a mile or more shooting steel and killing rocks. It gets a little windy up here but don't let that scare you and your 150 gr bullets.

BTW, this isn't a popularity contest. It's about the facts. And whether or not I out shoot you and your gun or you out shoot me and my gun also proves nothing. This isn't about the quality or accuracy of your rifles or my rifles. I'm sure you have and make fine rifles. Like I said, I would be glad to do a little challenging and fun shooting and glad to pay the dinner and beer tab as well.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Thanks for the input Kirby. It sounds like your 300 AX Has slightly less capacity than the Imp version I described? And to make clear regarding RL33, it works much better when using heavy for cal bullets such as the 30 cal 230 Hybrid.

I true 338 Lapua Improved does have slightly more capacity then my design but the difference is really minute. 1 grain at most difference.

That said, the reason I put more taper into my design is simple, more body taper enhances extraction with top pressure loads, ESPECIALLY if there happens to get some dust in the chamber which certainly can happen out in the field.

The reason for it is more function then performance, or should I say, better function at high performance levels.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Have done ALOT of load development and ballistic testing with big magnums ranging from 25 cal up to 50 cal. Looking over my notes I have found some interesting data that supports Marks comments in a couple ways. Let me offer some of these results. Since these are with my wildcats and this post is about Lazzeroni products, I will not mention my wildcats specifically.

First example is my 25 cal wildcat which is based on the 338 RUM, necked down and fireformed to my shoulder and body taper design. This is certainly a hot rod capable of driving a 100 gr bullet to a legit 4100 fps. That said, with the 100 gr bullet weights, does not matter if its a ballistic tip, Partition or Barnes TSX, about the best extreme spreads you will get for a 10 shot string is in the 25-35 fps range. Not bad. 500 yard accuracy with best loads for the test rifle were easily in the 3/4 moa ctc range for three shots at this range. THere was the occasional 1/2 moa sized group but can not say these loads would average this size groups. Again, not bad at all and in all honesty, I was stoked when I got this level of performance. That said, I was about to learn a valuable lesson with this testing.

I then switched to a custom 156 gr ULD RBBT made by Wildcat Bullets specifically for this big 25 cal magnum. Compared to the laser fast 100 gr bullet, this one is pretty poky clipping along at an average velocity of 3450 fps., that's more then 600 fps slower then the 100 gr bullet.

Interestingly enough, I tested H-870, AA8700, WC860 and WC872. Every one produced top loads that had Extreme Spread numbers between high single digits to low teens...... Add to that, 500 yard accuracy was also noticeably different, Average three shot group size was was just a hair over 1/3 moa but in doing accuracy testing over several different shooting sessions at 500 yards, I shot numerous groups that measured between 0.880" to 1.130", roughly 1/5 moa.

So, with the heavier bullet, Extreme Spreads dropped DRAMATICALLY as did group size at distance.

Now, to test this even more, I tested this at 1/2 mile (880 yards). The Hyper speed 100 gr bullets all produced groups in the 3/4 to 1 moa range in good shooting conditions. In slightly windy conditions, groups averaged in the 1 to 1.5 moa range simply because the wind was having its way with the lower BC bullet in spite of its hyper velocity launch speeds.

The relatively slow 156 gr ULD RBBTs on the other hand EASILY held WELL below 3/4 moa and there were several groups between 1/3 and 1/2 moa in size. While calm shooting conditions produced the best groups overall, even in the windy conditions, the group sizes were smaller then the 100 gr bullet groups when those were shot in calm conditions.......

When your dealing with large capacity magnum chamberings, the heavier the bullet you use, the more consistant your powder ignition will be. The resistance of the heavier bullets just improved ignition and powder burn which translates into tighter Extreme Spread numbers. The slower the powder used an the lower the expansion ratio of the chambering being used shows that the heavier the bullet the better the results.

These results have held true for 6.5mm, 270, 7mm, 300, 338, 375 and 50 cal. In every case, the heaviest bullets produced the tightest Extreme Spreads for each caliber. So as far as consistency goes and internal ballistics, the heavier bullets produce superior consistency in almost every chambering I have tested where case capacity is over 80 grains of powder charge size.

Now, as far as external ballistics go, the reason that the 156 gr ULD RBBTs shot tighter groups then the 100 gr bullet weights is likely a result of several things, Higher BC value which simply bucks the wind better and better velocity consistency adding up to better accuracy results at long range and even moderate ranges.

Again, this has been tested in every caliber mentioned above and inspite of the velocity advantage of the lighter bullets, and at ranges out past 800 yards, the heavier, higher BC bullets have a clear advantage, even more so then what you would expect comparing the two on paper.

Now, out to 500-600 yards, its a simple matter to flat out HORSEPOWER a light bullet out to these ranges with good results and very flat shooting. Past this range however, things REALLY start to fall apart for the lighter weight, hyper velocity bullets. Anyone that has tried to shoot a small target at 1000 yards with lightweight bullets and then tries it with a heavy weight bullet will or has realized that the heavier bullet just makes hit at longer ranges easier.

This is especially true when your shooting in a location that has unknown shooting conditions such as on the windy prairie or in Canyon country. Much different then shooting on a controlled shooting range that one is very familiar with.

I hate to use the word ALWAY because there are always anomalies that vary from the norm but in 90% of my testing, using a heavier bullet will produce finer velocity consistency. Also, the added ballistic performance of the higher BC bullets will make up for and then some any issue that may come from starting these bullets at lower velocity ranges compared to heavier bullets.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I true 338 Lapua Improved does have slightly more capacity then my design but the difference is really minute. 1 grain at most difference.

That said, the reason I put more taper into my design is simple, more body taper enhances extraction with top pressure loads, ESPECIALLY if there happens to get some dust in the chamber which certainly can happen out in the field.

The reason for it is more function then performance, or should I say, better function at high performance levels.

Gotcha, in any case, there is maybe 1 gr difference between the Lapua Imp and the Warbird.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Gotcha, in any case, there is maybe 1 gr difference between the Lapua Imp and the Warbird.

Yep, and seating depth with a given bullet could give the edge to the Lapua Improved or the Warbird depending on what each rifle was set up for throat length wise. They really are extremely close.

In fact, My brother keeps asking if I think he could use Lapua brass to make a short necked Warbird case. The main problem would be the slightly larger head diameter on the Lapua so I told him just to go with the Warbird until be burns the throat out and then we can rechamber if he decides to at that point.

Nothing at all wrong with the Warbird chambering, very potent, its just nothing more then the 300-338 Lapua Improves or the 30-378 Wby. All three are in the same performance class and all are very impressive. AND with the correct twist barrel, ALL perform more consistently in velocity and long range accuracy with heavy for caliber bullets. There is no question about that. Again, as long as the barrel being used has a twist rate that will fully stabilize the bullets being used.

 

[varmintH8R]

This is really interesting. I am tagging along. Thanks for the technical detail!

 

[LazzInc]

Mr Montana ,,,,,,

if I can hit the bull's-eye at 1,000 yards more often then you can, and more often on the first shot ,,,,, who has the better long range rig for killing game ? ,,,,,

Lazzeroni Arms Company provides off the shelf, out of the box performance that you cannot buy from any other commercial firearms manufacturer ,,,,,, been that way since I started in 1995 ,,,,,,,,

you can improve ANY piece of brass by blowing the shoulder forward, shortening the neck ((and reducing barrel throat life)) etc, etc etc ,,,,

Lazzeroni's Warbird case was designed to give the shooter the ballistic performance of the 30-378 WBY, but without the big belt, and with a properly designed chamber & throat so that you could seat most bullets against the lands, and still get the cartridge down in the mag box, for proper feed & function of the rifle ,,,,,,,

I really don't know you and Kirby at all ,,, but after reading all of this, it appears to me that you two guys have spent the last 17 years, trying desperately to find anything that you can shoot that will equal the lazz Warbird and/or 30-378 WBY ,,,,,,

would that be a fair statement ? ,,,,,,

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Mr Montana ,,,,,,

if I can hit the bull's-eye at 1,000 yards more often then you can, and more often on the first shot ,,,,, who has the better long range rig for killing game ? ,,,,,

Lazzeroni Arms Company provides off the shelf, out of the box performance that you cannot buy from any other commercial firearms manufacturer ,,,,,, been that way since I started in 1995 ,,,,,,,,

you can improve ANY piece of brass by blowing the shoulder forward, shortening the neck ((and reducing barrel throat life)) etc, etc etc ,,,,

Lazzeroni's Warbird case was designed to give the shooter the ballistic performance of the 30-378 WBY, but without the big belt, and with a properly designed chamber & throat so that you could seat most bullets against the lands, and still get the cartridge down in the mag box, for proper feed & function of the rifle ,,,,,,,

I really don't know you and Kirby at all ,,, but after reading all of this, it appears to me that you two guys have spent the last 17 years, trying desperately to find anything that you can shoot that will equal the lazz Warbird and/or 30-378 WBY ,,,,,,

would that be a fair statement ? ,,,,,,

I'm not really sure what all this ****ing in the wind is about (not just from John btw...).

I wasn't going to chime in here but I'll purge myself a bit like you'all are doing and toss my two cents in since this is turning into a whose is bigger contest and a rather immature one at best.

**** near every builder on this site builds a good rifle.
Some cost rifles more, some cost less. I don't really care!!! When I want a rifle to hunt my criteria at present considers cost, but it will not always be that way.

In a few years when my other obligations are paid for I'll be able to buy whatever the hell I want. At present I'm stuck on factory or semi custom and they are plenty good for the hunting I do even with moving game and wind in consideration. I don't pop off at steel or paper at 1000 yards; I kill deer (often running and/or in heavy wind) at anywhere from 100 yards to 700+ yards without benefit of rests or gadgets like anemometers; I may use the rangefinder my wife got me if I have time though this year.

As to performance, there isn't 200 fps between the 30rum, 30 lapua improved (any variant), 30-378 roy, and warbird rifles. Probably half that or less if you use similar powders and put the same pressure gauges on all of them with the same length/twist barrels. And a third grader could tell you the same capacity is the same capacity no matter the shape. Since a rifle is really a simple device at heart the same capacity, same barrel dimensions, and same bullet weight is the same performance. Start jerrymandering parameters and you have an apples and oranges comparison at best.

To John, my brother in law dang near bought a warbird from you some years ago but you declined to continue e-mailing him after he asked about re-barreling costs; he's one of these dive in head first types (and had actually planned to shoot your rifle out) and is very happy with his 338 rum, btw.. You saved him a re-barrel since that barrel is still going strong. Care to finally answer if you will re-barrel one of your rifles if the owner shoots it out???

 

[Fiftydriver]

No, that's about where the performance level of my wildcats start and then goes up from there DRAMATICALLY. It is a good performance level for all around use though, there is no doubt there. When you go much above this, your getting into pretty specialized weapon systems really intended for use from 1/2 on out, WAY out past that, even out to 3000 yards which we have tested out to that range and beyond many times.

The Warbird and 30-378 are really just the first step in in performance for what we are doing now days. Again for all around use, a great performance level to be at, that is why my 7mm AM, 300 AX and 338 AX are such good sellers, all in this same performance relm with the Warbird and big Wby chamberings. All similar but just do things in a slightly different way.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mr Montana ,,,,,,

if I can hit the bull's-eye at 1,000 yards more often then you can, and more often on the first shot ,,,,, who has the better long range rig for killing game ? ,,,,,

John, Yes and No... As another member has pointed out, this is Long Range Hunting, not BR Central. Both sites are dedicated to precision rifles and marksmanship but from completly different approaches. In long Range Hunting, there are no pre measured 1000 yd targets, no benches, no sun and rain protective overhangs, no wind flags, no sighters, etc., etc.

My offer still stands, if you would like to travel up this way, you can show us the first shot long range capabilities of your rig from maybe 1K to 2 K. That would be fine and dandy. Course of fire would be something like drive up to a location, get your rig out and let's pick some rocks out there 1K to 2K and make some cold bore shots on them. Temps could be 20 or 90, wind could be 5 or 20 or more. Cold bore shots.

That would be challenging and fun for sure, but we are straying from what you claimed about bullets and and brass.

Lazzeroni Arms Company provides off the shelf, out of the box performance that you cannot buy from any other commercial firearms manufacturer ,,,,,, been that way since I started in 1995 ,,,,,,,,

That may or may not be true. I don't know one way or another and it has nothing to do with what I asked you in my first post in this thread. I do know that Cooper produces a very good product with and excellent guarantee and reputation for both performance and service. I am just not that familiar with your products one way or another. I assume that they are fine rifles.

you can improve ANY piece of brass by blowing the shoulder forward, shortening the neck ((and reducing barrel throat life)) etc, etc etc ,,,,

Lazzeroni's Warbird case was designed to give the shooter the ballistic performance of the 30-378 WBY, but without the big belt, and with a properly designed chamber & throat so that you could seat most bullets against the lands, and still get the cartridge down in the mag box, for proper feed & function of the rifle ,,,,,,,

Yes you can improve on most cases, so what's your point? Your Warbird is actually designed very well and efficiently and there is little room for improvement in taper and shoulder. The Lapua was designed more for military application with greater taper and softer shoulder. MY point is YOU made a statement that your Warbird brass/cartridge is the ONLY brass/cartridge of its kind to produce that kind of performance in a "carryable" rifle. I'll say it again, it's simply not true. If you make that kind of statement, you should expect that you might actually get questioned on it.

I really don't know you and Kirby at all ,,, but after reading all of this, it appears to me that you two guys have spent the last 17 years, trying desperately to find anything that you can shoot that will equal the lazz Warbird and/or 30-378 WBY ,,,,,,

would that be a fair statement ? ,,,,,,

No, it's not an accurate statement. It sounds more to me like a statement that a paranoid narcissist would make. Not saying that's you, but that's what it sounds like to me since you're asking. I assure you I am not desperate at all about trying to equal or best you, and I am certain Kirby is less desperate than me. My 300 RUM shooting 230 Hybrids over RL33 is a potent combination and Your War bird shooting the same combo would be that much better. That said, I've got plans for rifles running around in my head for 2K to 3K shooting. Kirby and Shawn are already making them. Like I said earlier, times change... it's up to you whether or not you want to keep up with them.

In the mean time, when you make incredible statements, expect them to be challenged.

 

[Fiftydriver]

My offer still stands, if you would like to travel up this way, you can show us the first shot long range capabilities of your rig from maybe 1K to 2 K. That would be fine and dandy. Course of fire would be something like drive up to a location, get your rig out and let's pick some rocks out there 1K to 2K and make some cold bore shots on them. Temps could be 20 or 90, wind could be 5 or 20 or more. Cold bore shots.

I would add to this we have to shoot over inconsistent elevations often shooting at upward or downward angles and most importantly, shooting with out bellies on the dirt and not from a consistant shooting bench. Now a properly set up field shooting position can be very stable, still, its nothing like a properly set up bench rest position.

I would love to see this happen, I would come down and supply the video equipment for the shoot!!! Maybe bring a smoke pole as well....

 

[MontanaRifleman]

My offer still stands, if you would like to travel up this way, you can show us the first shot long range capabilities of your rig from maybe 1K to 2 K. That would be fine and dandy. Course of fire would be something like drive up to a location, get your rig out and let's pick some rocks out there 1K to 2K and make some cold bore shots on them. Temps could be 20 or 90, wind could be 5 or 20 or more. Cold bore shots.

I would add to this we have to shoot over inconsistent elevations often shooting at upward or downward angles and most importantly, shooting with out bellies on the dirt and not from a consistant shooting bench. Now a properly set up field shooting position can be very stable, still, its nothing like a properly set up bench rest position.

I would love to see this happen, I would come down and supply the video equipment for the shoot!!! Maybe bring a smoke pole as well....

I'm all in!