Why not lazzeroni rifles?

[MontanaRifleman]

extreme ,,,,,,,,

appreciate the advice ,,,, I have had to put up with stuff like this for 18 years, so it is not new ,,,,,,,

us guys all have big egos, and they often cause us to run off at the mouth a little, with the exact "bragging rights" figures I was referring to ,,,,,,,

knowledgeable loaders and shooters such as yourself DO know the difference ,,,

Interesting response John. You could have easily satisfied and quieted me with some FACTS. But since you are not willing to provide facts to back up your statements and claims, I'm assuming that there aren't any.

Bragging rights? Who's bragging? The only bragging I see is....

the ONLY other piece of brass available in the market place today that will fit into a carryable bolt action hunting rifle, and run with the Lazzeroni, is the 378 WBY brass ,,,,, and the same performance can be achieved with it, "with" the correct chamber/throat design ,,,,,, (stock WBY chambers are NOT correct for this type of loading and shooting)))

And it is simply not true. Are you claiming your brass is better than Lapua? If you are, you will certainly get a lot of debate on that.

It seems to me you are deflecting the focus of my inquiries with a strawman distraction.

 

[LazzInc]

Montana rifleman ,,,,,,

I was ABOUT to say that "I" am never so arrogant to think I have nothing more to learn ,,,,, as I ALWAYS have more to learn ,,,,,

Now that YOU have just plowed right back into this conversation again ,,, com'on ,,,,, 338 LaPua brass has no where near the case capacity of the Lazz Warbird OR 378 WBY ,,,,,,

second ,,,,, getting 3,170fps out of a 230gr .308 diameter bullet at 66,000 max PSI pressure, would take the WARBIRD case, a real slow powder and about a 33"+ barrel length ,,,,,,,

good ballisticians other than myself can back this up with previous test data ,,,,,,,

in summary, I DO respect your passion toward this long range shooting game, it is what makes ALL of us better ,,,,,,,

BUT if achieving true Lazzeroni Warbird performance out of something less, is your ultimate goal, why not just have a bolt rifle chambered up in the Lazz Warbird caliber and be done with it ,,,,,, many rifle builders could do this for you,,,,,

 

[LittleLebowski]

What with all of the ",,,,,"? If you're posting in a public forum as a representative of your company, why not take the time to use proper grammar?

 

[LONGSHOOTER]

Little Lebowski, the first post troll.

 

[LONGSHOOTER]

Hey Little, "What with"?

 

[LittleLebowski]

Hey Little, "What with"?

Got me there

I've lurked for a long time here and don't post as I'm too busy reading. Not trolling. I'm a Wyoming native on the East Coast for work and don't get to shoot long range really except when I'm back at the family ranch.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Montana rifleman ,,,,,,

I was ABOUT to say that "I" am never so arrogant to think I have nothing more to learn ,,,,, as I ALWAYS have more to learn ,,,,,

Now that YOU have just plowed right back into this conversation again ,,, com'on ,,,,, 338 LaPua brass has no where near the case capacity of the Lazz Warbird OR 378 WBY ,,,,,,

OK, let's get down to the facts. The 338 Lapua does indeed have "near" the capacity of the Warbird. If we go AmmoGuide it lists the 30/378 with 120.6 gr of H2O capacity, the Warbird @ 117.2 gr and the 338 LM with 111.8 gr.

However, I said the 30/338 LM Imp. The version listed in Ammoguide has 114.3 gr of capacity with a .405 neck. The Warbird has a .314 neck. my version of the 30/338 LM imp would have about a .320 neck making basically identical in capacity and just a little shorter than the Warbird. So indeed, there is quality brass available for a carryable rifle in the same category as the Warbird.

second ,,,,, getting 3,170fps out of a 230gr .308 diameter bullet at 66,000 max PSI pressure, would take the WARBIRD case, a real slow powder and about a 33"+ barrel length ,,,,,,,

good ballisticians other than myself can back this up with previous test data ,,,,,,,

Not sure what your getting at here John? Are you saying MMRESS is not getting that velocity or he is way over pressure? I personally know MMRESS and have shot with him a couple of times at the 1000 yd range in Townsend MT. He is both a proficient handloader and marksman. He uses an Oehler 35 to determine his velocities, unless he's gotten a Magnetospeed since the last time I saw him this summer. If you look into that thread a little closer, he actually got well over 3200 fps before seeing any pressure signs. He backed off a couple of gr from that.

It seems you might think I'm saying the RUM is equal to or "better" than the Warbird? I am not. I was merely giving an example of how well a heavy bullet performed in both velocity and accuracy out of a 300 RUM. I would think that the Warbird with about 9% more capacity than the RUM would perform that much better. If I was you, I would take a close look @ RL33 since it appears to me that you are a person who likes to see velocity performance. I think it would do very well in the many of the Lazzoroni chamberings. There are many consistent reports of handloaders getting 100-200 fps more velocity with 33 over other powders in chamberings from the 6-284 up to and including the 338 LM Imp.

Basically, you have just admitted that the 300 RUM using RL33 out performs the Warbird. The thing about 33 is, it's a very slow and dense powder and likes heavy bullets for cal. You don't seem to like the heavier bullets which is a mystery to me.

I'll put a 300 RUM shooting 230 Hybrids (which are the most efficient 308 bullets available) over RL33 against any Warbird shooting 180 gr bullets. In this case, it's not the rifle or chamber, it's the powder and bullet that make it superior in external ballistic performance. Times change and with it so does technology. If you don't keep up with it, you get left behind. That's not necessarily bad... it's just the way it is.

in summary, I DO respect your passion toward this long range shooting game, it is what makes ALL of us better ,,,,,,,

BUT if achieving true Lazzeroni Warbird performance out of something less, is your ultimate goal, why not just have a bolt rifle chambered up in the Lazz Warbird caliber and be done with it ,,,,,, many rifle builders could do this for you,,,,

John, I greatly respect your innovation with the Lazzoroni Chamberings. The Warbird was basically a Lapua ahead of its time and a fine chambering. I just like the Lapua Imp a little better and one of its biggest appeals to me is it's superior quality brass and I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Superior quality brass for handloaders who push large magnums to their limits is a big, big plus.

Regards

 

[LazzInc]

Mark ,,,,,

you cannot compare the water capacity of your FIRED Improved Lapua case, to an unfired Warbird case ,,,,,, fired cases of this size generally hold 3-6 more grains of water then they do unfired ,,,,,,

NOW ,,, Please pay attention here ((you are not a relative of Kirby's are you? LOL ,))) ,,,,,

I can take brand new out of the box Warbird brass right now ,,,,, shoot it thru my pressure barrel at 86,000 PSI proof pressure ((20,000+ PSI pressure over standard maximum))) and still re-use the case when I am done ,,,,,,

NO OTHER brass available today will perform BETTER than that, and most not as well ,,,,,,,

AND your IMPROVED Lapua case is still shorter than the Warbird, AND has more body taper ,,,, it will NOT provide the case capacity of the standard once fired Warbird case ,,,, AND the Warbird case does not need to be fireformed, it is ready to go right out of the box ,,,,

The Warbird case was ahead of it's time back in 1995 and STILL is today ,,,,,

so let's just cut the crap here on this thread and move on ,,,,,,

 

[mtnwrunner]

so let's just cut the crap here on this thread and move on ,,,,,,[/QUOTE]

And it seems to me that there is a lot of crap.
That's the best thing you've said AND the only smart thing you've said in all of this.
Think I'll stick with a lowly ole weatherby......

Randy

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Sorry John, not buying it.

The AmmoGuide capacities are based on mathematical calculations from the case specs, not fired vs unfired. The FACT is that a Lapua Imp case as I described is essentially EXACTLY the same capacity as a Warbird, if not greater - fired cases FL sized to spec dimensions. In fact, the Lupua Imp version I cited actually had it's web pushed in from .588 to .585

The Warbird has a taper of .020 As you no doubt know there are numerous Lapua Imp versions. There is no set body taper. My body taper would be about .016

The web diameter of the Warbird is .580 The web diameter of the Lapua is .588

The shoulder diameter of the Warbird is .560 The shoulder diameter of my Lapua improved is .572

The shoulder length of the Warbird is 2.311 The shoulder length of my lapua Imp is 2.270

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out the Lapua Imp is slightly shorter but also fatter and therefore essentially the same capacity.

Maybe for grins we can get one of Kirby's fired and sized 300 AX cases and one of your fired and sized Warbird cases and actually measure them? Of course, Kirby could do that himself.

It sounds to me that you are saying your Hornady made brass brass is better than Lapua? Hornady brass is not bad, but it is no where near Lapua quality.

I think there's some crap to cut here, but it's not from me sir.

 

[LazzInc]

Mark ,,,,,,,

hey pal ,,, I am buying it and selling it ,,,,,,

you are wrong, and my accomplishments and the performance of the Lazzeroni Warbird (and all of the other Lazzeroni calibers) is a matter of record ,,, not some dream that is pulled out of my backside ,,,,,,,

I initially thought you were an intelligent guy with good information to offer here ,,, "I" was the one that was wrong about you and I should have listened to advice of others way back about 10 posts ago ,,,,,,,,,

YOU need to find yourself a pair of calipers and measure the LaPua case at the base, you might also want to measure the 378 wby ,,,,,

AND out of the 50,000 or so rounds of the Lazz Warbird loaded ammo we sold last year, 56% of it was loaded with the 150gr Lazerhead bullet ,,,,,, 30% with the 168gr HPBT and the balance loaded with 180gr Swift a-frames ,,,,,,

so if you can find a way to beat on your self inflated chest any harder, realize that YOU are the one that is in the minority, ,,,,,,,

if YOU want to shoot a special 230g bullet in 30 caliber magnums, get after it, that's what our country is all about ,,,,,

but ANYTIME you want to travel down to Tucson with your hunting rifle, and shoot against me at 1,000 yards, we have a match the second Saturday of every month ,,,,,,, we can put down a wager as big as your pocketbook will allow ,,,,,

you can also line your self up against the current world record holder in the 1,000 yard light gun class, for smallest group aggregate, 3 groups ,,,,,

and by the way ,,, HE shoots the Lazzeroni 7.82 (.308) Patriot SHORT magnum ,,,,,,

I am old & fat ,,, HE is not ,,,,,,,,

 

[IdahoRedneck]

John, seriously.............you need to read some more on this forum...........and see what the guys are doing who are pushing the envelope. Its not your little circle of freinds and current match holders, its the real people that are doing things very impresive.

On every forum I frequent you only post on your own threads or to toot your own horn, how bout buck up and test some of them Lazzeroni callibers with the heavy high BC pills. Thats where its moving now and what most of the folks looking into Long Range Hunting are building cuz it works. This is Long Range Hunting not Benchrest central.

I would think that if you sponsered this site you would be more open to testing things your potential cutomers wanted to see, instead you come here, toot your own horn and tell everyone your stuff is unequaled when all of us locals know, people are doing alot more with alot less. Pfffftt.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Just to be clear as I can be, I in no way responding to ANYTHING john has posted. This post is in reply to Mark and Mark alone.

Last weekend my brother and I were working on setting up our rifles to get ready for the upcoming big game season. His rifle is a Sako TRG in 7.82 Warbird with a 26" barrel length. My rifle is my old green hammer that I rebarreled to my 300 Allen Xpress which is basically a 300-338 Lapua Improved except that its got a slightly less aggressive shoulder angle and slightly more body taper then a true Ackley Improved design to aid in feeding.

We were both testing RL33 in both rifles, my brother was testing the 180 gr Accubond, because of the relatively slow twist in the Sakos barrel. I was shooting the 200 gr Accubond out of the 26.5" Lilja 1-10 twist barrel on my 300 AX.

My brothers old load used Retumbo and topped out at 3505 fps with a max load. My definition of max load is allowing 4 firings per case before primer pockets are to loose for our comfort. This is exactly where the 3505 fps load with the 180 gr Accubond is at, 4 firings and primer pockets are pretty **** loose. You could still shoot them but you would start to see some minor gas leakage.

Interestingly enough, with this bullet weight, RL33 topped out at 3514 fps at the same pressure level so there was no real advantage with this powder and this bullet weight in the Warbird, pretty much 3500 fps and that's were your at with his rifle.

Now if you take a FIRED and FL sized 7.82 Warbird, and compare its capacity to one of my FIRED and FL sized 300 Allen Xpress cases, filled to the base of the neck, NOT FILLED TO THE CASE MOUTH (Warbird has a pretty long neck but that means nothing to usible case capacity), the difference between the two is exactly 1 grain in favor of the Warbird.

Its about 100 thou longer roughly but that's mainly in the neck and again, that means nothing for usible case capacity.

When I developed loads for my 300 Allen Xpress using the 200 gr Accubond(had to use this bullet to seat close to the lands with the 3.670" limit for the HS Precision DM system), I topped out at 3475 fps but was getting a bit more of an ejector ring then I like to see so I stepped my load back 2 gains and my average load is 3433 fps. So within 67 fps of my brothers Warbird load with same barrel length but with 20 grains more bullet weight.

Now, I took one case of this test brass, loaded it, fired it over the chrono, sized it, loaded it, fired it and repeated over and over to see when the primer pocket would loose up. IT NEVER DID!!! I fired the case 11 times and just decided to stop and that case is still perfectly fine to use with a very snug primer pocket.

So, real world numbers, Sako TRG Warbird, 180 gr Accubond, 3510 fps, 4-5 firings per case.

300 Allen Xpress, 200 gr Accubond, 3433 fps, +11 firings per case

Now the real kicker that will make some REALLY happy here. Just tested a customers 300 Allen Xpress that I built on my Raptor Hunter model rifle, this is a 7.5 lb bare rifle weight rifle, 26" Barrel length on my Raptor Hunter receiver. The Raptor Hunter pushed the same 200 gr Accubond to an average velocity of 3518 fps with brass life of over 8 firings per case........

Again, did not test the 215 or 230 gr Hybrid because of the use of the HS Precision DM system which will not allow seating to the lands and RL33 needs the bullets to be seated to the lands.

Am I loading the 300 AX to higher chamber pressures then my Brother is loading his Warbird, I am sure I am, velocity is simply a function of pressure and time, the key thing here is, the Lapua brass is taking the higher pressure with a smile. No bragging, no chest thumping, just a fact about what we are seeing with the warbird compared head to head with the 300 Allen Xpress.

I think we need to have a conversation on LRH about powder "detonation" and what happens when large magnum chamberings are loaded to pressures much over 70-72K in pressure. REALLY bad things start to happen above this pressure level. For instance, any powder left in the bore ignites and burns almost instantly at this point, that is called detonation. The pressure spike is HUGE and this is the main reason why we blow primer pockets out. Most modern cases will handle the progressive pressure curve but once detonation happens, the pressure spike permenantly deforms cartridge brass to the point that it can not contract back to its near original form and primers fall out of the cases when they are extracted.

The larger the case capacity of the rounds being loaded to this level, the more powder left in the bore when we hit these levels of pressure and the worse things get on the brass. Not a big issue with smaller chamberings as there is not much powder left in the bore but with big magnums, there is plenty left and things get serious in a hurry. Always smile when I hear that 86K number being floated.......

Again MARK, take this information for what you will, I have no desire to have any conversations with John on this subject. Just offering solid, real world data and results using his most popular chambering that my brother and I have been working with for over 10 years now......

 

[Fiftydriver]

After thinking about my post last night after making the post at close to 1:00 in the morning, I realized it may be best to go into a bit more detail as to how I measure the usible case capacity of the 7.82 Warbird and the 300 Allen Xpress.

To put things on the same footing, what I did was take RL33 and took a powder charge starting at 100.0 grains and then seated a 200 gr Accubond bullet in each case to an OAL of 3.670" on both cases. Then I would simply shake the case to see if there was any powder rattling in the case meaning there was air in the case.

Then pull the bullet with my collet bullet puller, add another grain of powder and reseat the bullet to the same 3.670" OAL. I repeated this until I went from JUST being able to hearing the powder rattle in the case to NOT in 1 grain increase in powder.

When that was done with both cases, the Warbid held 1 grain more of RL33 then the 300 Allen Xpress case design held. This may seem like a bit bother but with a few presses mounted on my loading bench, it really is quite a simple process and does not take long at all. While it seems quite simple and a crude way of measuring case capacity to compare two case designs, its actually a lot more accurate then trying to GUESS when the powder is at the base of the case neck.

Now, I used this 3.670" OAL number as just a length that would work in most conventional DM systems and internal mag boxes. Yes some are much longer but in those instances, both the Warbird and Allen Xpress could be seated out to the same OAL so the comparision would still be the same.

The only situation where the Warbird would gain more of a capacity advantage would be if these rounds were chambered in a single shot rifle and the throat was cut so that the bullets were seated JUST enough in the case to hold the bullet in place. In this situation, the Warbird would have 2-3 grains more usible capacity but for any repeating rifle that has an OAL limit of 3.900" or less, the difference between the two is roughly 1 grain.

Just to add a bit more information to this comparision. I am not saying that the 7.82 Warbird can not match anything my 300 Allen Xpress can produce because I would certainly think that it could. We have not done a head to head comparision with the 200 gr Accubond in the Warbird. My brother did try this bullet in the original Warbird brass before Hornady started making it and we were unable to break 3200 fps with the 200 gr Accubond.

Again, that was the original, old style brass. The new Hornady made brass is much better for sure but we still did not do a head to head comparison simply because my brothers rifle does not shoot the 200 gr Accubond as well as the 180 gr version.

With current Warbird brass, I would think the Warbird would match anything my 300 Allen Xpress will do. The only difference is brass life. Where the Lapua based wildcat will get you 10+ firings per case, the Warbird likely will stay in the same 3-4-5 firings per case range. Simply comes down to a brass life issue.

This comparision is nearly identical to the comparison between the 30-378 Wby and 300 Allen Xpress and also between the 338-378 Wby vs. 338 Allen Xpress or the 378 Wby vs. 375 Allen Xpress.

In all three of these comparisions, my Allen Xpress chamberings will easily match the much larger Wby chamberings in performance and they will do this simply because the brass allows them to be loaded to higher chamber pressures. Some will say this is not a fair comparision as anyone can boost pressures just to increase velocity numbers for bragging rights. That really is not the case, The improved versions of the Lapua case will match the much larger Wby chamberings and do so by using 5-8 grains less powder but also, even though the pressure is higher, do so with MUCH longer brass life and with lower brass cost.

When you figure in the number of firings per case, the price for each firing REALLY goes down.

In reality, the Improved wildcats on the Lapua case, My Wildcats based on this case, The Lazzeroni long magnums and the big Wby chamberings are all pretty much all ballistically the same things just in different packages. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, some lean more one way or the other but determining that really depends on the individual choosing what chambering they want.

Brass life, brass cost, rifle price and many other factors need to be determined by the individual to determine which fits their needs better then the others. While they are all similar in performance, they are also very different in function and form so there are many things to determine which is best for your application.